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Author Topic: Starsector not being on major distribution platforms is legit hurting its growth  (Read 7958 times)

Tartiflette

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I didn't said impossible, I said "cumbersome". And cumbersome is the last thing I need when there is already three places I have to manage every time I update any of my mods.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Funny how it's always some newbie with no modding experience telling us it's super easy, isn't it? And then when you ask why they haven't made anything of their own - well, gosh, that would be hard.
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[HN]

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Quote
Funny how it's always some newbie with no modding experience telling us it's super easy, isn't it?
Ho yeah.
Thos fcking newbies that don't know sht about modding and steam workshop.
::)
Looks to me like the real newbies here are the one with an obvious lack of experience on the steamworkshop that either think it can't support mods if they break saves, that it's "cumbersome" to use, that it's only for very minor stuff like "hats" (you realize we aren't in 2008 anymore, right? the world has moved on from TF2 days) or that its completely useless since we got other places to DL the mods from (which is EXTREMELY funny to read on a topic about how having a better platform for SS would help its growth, since, yaknow, the workshop has the exact same effect when it comes to mod exposure).
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Wyvern

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As someone who has done some modding work, and some playing of games with mods: I have zero interest in dealing with mods on Steam, from either a developer or a player perspective.  Auto-updating with no opt-out option is an egregiously poor design; I have enough problems just playing Stellaris (for an example) without mods thanks to that particular design decision.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

[HN]

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I can agree that while very useful, the auto-update should have an optout option. But that's pretty much the only downside of the workshop, and it's in the overwhelming majority of case a very minor one.
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Tartiflette

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There is not a week without a major mod getting a save breaking update.
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Harmful Mechanic

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I'm actually pretty neutral on the Steam Workshop, since I expect to be pretty much done with my mod by the time it's something I have to deal with and I'd be fine with putting it up (although that would likely be the point where I scotch any further big efforts on it). I'm not actually looking for exposure; if anything I wish fewer people would play my mod since they so obviously wanted something other than the mod I made.

What I don't want to do is deal with the support whining on Steam and all the other extra labor it would make for me.
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[HN]

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Well guess what? Nobody is forcing you to deal with anything you don't want to, just like you aren't forced to deal with support whining on that very forum.

You point still echos mine when it comes to the original topic of that thread : Steam is great to get exposure, but exposure also comes with it's downside, and having to deal with a larger user base is one, that's why waiting for the game to be done (or very close to be done) isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Nobody's forcing me to... but nobody's protecting me from my work being uploaded to Steam without my control or consent, either, which is why I'd put it up myself; I don't like the idea but I'd rather it be under my control if it's going to end up there. I'm less bent out of shape about it than Meso or Tarti, but it's not great, either.

(This is all assuming Alex decides to give a hypothetical Steam version of Starsector Workshop support. He might not.)

I've cut back on offering support a lot for just that reason. It's not worth it; I have a FAQ, people who don't read the FAQ can read it and see if they still have a question or go swivel. I've made my peace and plans for whatever does or doesn't happen around Steam years ago; what I want and what the least irritating practical course of action is are very different.
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[HN]

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Nobody's forcing me to... but nobody's protecting me from my work being uploaded to Steam without my control or consent, either, which is why I'd put it up myself;
On the contrary, Steam takes action against people uploading stuff that isn't theirs, you can just report it and they'll remove it (and maybe even smack the mod thief behind he ears).

(This is all assuming Alex decides to give a hypothetical Steam version of Starsector Workshop support. He might not.)
True, but that would frankly be a shame since the game has already a pretty solid mod integration (remember that just because a game has a workshop it doesn't mean you are forced to use it or that you can't just put your files in there like you use to.

I've cut back on offering support a lot for just that reason. It's not worth it; I have a FAQ, people who don't read the FAQ can read it and see if they still have a question or go swivel. I've made my peace and plans for whatever does or doesn't happen around Steam years ago; what I want and what the least irritating practical course of action is are very different.
I know the feel, but frankly it's more a general user thing than just a workshop thing, people just don't take 2 second to read, or just THINK some times and rather ask questions first.
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SapphireSage

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While I already have SS and do not plan to be using any other version than the one I get from this website, and so might not be the target audience as it were, I would like to have a bit of input.

I don't have much time to play video games. In fact, when I do its usually because I'm skipping out on what little sleep I can afford. This caused a lot of issues when trying to play Stellaris. In Stellaris, I had a couple mods, like Glavius' AI mod to make AI usable for example. The issue was that by the time I could reach midgame, the game would've updated which will break my save. Paradox at the least does provide a sorta wonky work around with Steam's version selection feature where you can play the last patch of a major version, but that wouldn't stop the mod updates from break the game entirely. My friend did tell me later of a procedure where you go offline and change some files for the mods with saved backups to be able to play older mod versions with the older version of the game, but the procedure would have to be done each time I wanted to play as everytime I used Steam online it would auto-update. When my time to play games is already so small, the last thing I'm going to do is spend time having to replace files before turning on my game so I can play it. After a few cycles of trying to play and having my saves broken mid-game I decided that ultimately, I would not be able to play Stellaris and to let it collect digital dust.

Now, that anecdote is not to say that Steam workshop is bad for everyone or even most. I would say that I'm in the clear minority, but for most end users I would agree that steam workshop is very convenient. My bigger worry for it has to do with a couple of things.

First, like Soren said, literally anyone can post someone's content up onto Steam Workshop if they decided to. While you can report it, its likely a fair amount of work for the modder to have to deal with to prove its theirs. Unpleasant work that they might not want to do, but will have to in order to protect their content. That's not something I would want the modders to have to deal with for creating mod content and deciding not to put it on steam.

Secondly, my biggest concern would be splitting of the mod content. Right now, with its smaller audience all the mods are contained on this forum available for every user. While Nexus has been implemented, its far from having half the mods let alone all. If Steam Workshop were a thing, I would worry that most people that get the game on steam would make the mods for the Steam workshop, meaning that those of us who want to keep the game off steam would be locked out of all the mod content created only for steam.

Assuming this game scores a major hit with the audience it targets and becomes popular, I do not believe that this forum would be able to handle so many people regularly coming and going to get mods. Especially, when the more popular mods update. There may come a time where a place that can handle the mods created and downloaded regularly might be needed, and it would be nice if it provided an easy way to update when the user chooses to. But that option isn't entirely the steam workshop. The steam workshop would be good for steam users, but wouldn't work for those who want to get the game here or on the other platforms it may or may not be available on such as GoG, itch.io, or Epic and would risk losing any mods made only for the steam workshop for those users.

In short, I would like an option that produces less risk of exclusive mods on a single platform that also forces auto-updates, and can cause issues for modders that don't want to use the platform.
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Midnight Kitsune

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You'd be surprised to the kind of stuff the workshop contain, it's has way bigger stuff than "hat mods". SS mods aren't any special when it comes to size and scope.
It is more along the lines of how SS and mods work and put their content in game. You see, most content, like faction's systems and stations, is put into the game on sector creation. Same with many of the special things they do in the campaign. Said systems, stations and planets generate the fleets of the factions, which is the meat and bones of most mods. And currently right now any mod that removes something or changes a file name will cause a crash if used on a old save.

You would basically have to rebuild most of the game from the ground up in order to have saves not self destruct. And you could possibly end up needing loading screens as well. Don't let the fact that the game is made in java lull you into thinking it is easy to just to add or remove mods from the game
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Cyan Leader

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I agree with Kitsune, with the current state the Workshop is an impossibility. It just isn't viable with how the game interacts with mods and saves.
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