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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21)

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Author Topic: New Commerce  (Read 3815 times)

Terethall

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Re: New Commerce
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2020, 04:49:40 PM »

Honestly there's already enough money
This. Military defense against pirates and expeditions is way more valuable, so you don't get your s*** stolen.
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Morrokain

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Re: New Commerce
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2020, 06:41:42 PM »

With this change, high stability is a benefit militarily, but not financially; it's nice to untangle the two and have a wider range of "acceptable" stability values.

Nice I like this! I think it makes sense to untangle them.
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Agile

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Re: New Commerce
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2020, 09:19:09 PM »

Personally, I think there need to be market limits.

You can sell anything to any market on any planet, no matter how big or small it is, which is bad design in of itself. It leads to players doing as many have said already in this thread; selling to pirate markets then blowing them up. Realistically, such markets would only have X amount of cash they can use, and then they are tapped out and you have to come back again later.

Imma make a more detailed post actually since this needs a lot more addressing.
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Megas

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Re: New Commerce
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2020, 05:59:23 AM »

To sum it up, it increases income by 50% at a base level, and 100% if it's both "improved" (via story points) and has an Alpha Core.

Also, i've changed the impact of stability on income, which the tweet refers to. Below 5, it still works the same, but above 5, it's 100% income regardless, i.e. there's no more income bonus for having high stability. That's been a bit of a design annoyance in the past for various reasons, and makes high stability too much of a must-have. With this change, high stability is a benefit militarily, but not financially; it's nice to untangle the two and have a wider range of "acceptable" stability values.

So, basically, Commerce gives you way more income, at the expense of defenses (and, later, presumably offense as well). +100% income means that it'll be the best financial choice, likely even at 2 industries total, as long as you're able to maintain stability of 5 or more.
I forgot who pointed this out, but it sounds like player needs this new Commerce to have the same income as today.  Without it, player makes less money than he can make today without it.  In other words, no-Commerce income will be nerfed, and player needs this industry - that has a massive penalty - to maintain current income... at best.  Having Commerce means one less industry for exports.

Unless the babysitting problems get fixed, I think bigger defenses will be more important.  The babysitting the player needs to do is insane, and gigantic fleets that can reliably automate some of it is great at removing a little of the load (player still needs to save core from pirates that refuse to stay down for more than a day, and grind rep for core worlds that keep sending expeditions).

However, it seems like Commerce will be useful after a total core kill, when there are no more babysitting problems.  Got to squeeze more income from Population and Infrastructure when there is no more income from exports.

It would be nice if the new Commerce boosted more beyond income, either accessibility and/or population growth.  Right now, I use Free Port primarily for population growth bonus (and maybe meeting demand once my colonies grow bigger than core worlds).  More money is nice, but I gladly throw it away for total core kill to stop the babysitting insanity.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 06:09:33 AM by Megas »
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FooF

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Re: New Commerce
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2020, 08:26:06 AM »

@ Megas

I think that's a good design decision: you either have income or offense/defense (but not both). As it is, it's not unheard of for some of AAA colonies to be raking in 3-400k/month and my overall empire in my current run is right at 1M/month. That kind of income trivializes the game. If the new income/Commerce mechanics halve colony income, I think we'll still be rolling in un-spendable credits by endgame.

Or, to put it another way, put Commerce on a planet that already has another colony in-system with Military Bases/High Command or just get more colonies to bolster your income. :D

That said, I agree that Commerce should boost population and/or accessibility. Though, I'd add, not directly as a multiplier of existing Waystations, Space/Megaports, Skills, etc. so that adding all of those on top of Commerce is the best route (though the most resource intensive).
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Megas

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Re: New Commerce
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2020, 08:45:49 AM »

@ Megas

I think that's a good design decision: you either have income or offense/defense (but not both). As it is, it's not unheard of for some of AAA colonies to be raking in 3-400k/month and my overall empire in my current run is right at 1M/month. That kind of income trivializes the game. If the new income/Commerce mechanics halve colony income, I think we'll still be rolling in un-spendable credits by endgame.

Or, to put it another way, put Commerce on a planet that already has another colony in-system with Military Bases/High Command or just get more colonies to bolster your income. :D

That said, I agree that Commerce should boost population and/or accessibility. Though, I'd add, not directly as a multiplier of existing Waystations, Space/Megaports, Skills, etc. so that adding all of those on top of Commerce is the best route (though the most resource intensive).
Given the expedition insanity (or perma -3/50 activity after a total core kill), offense/defense takes priority.  Sounds like a no-brainer, if babysitting stays as it is.

I think income should be high, like 1M a month so player can afford to build new ships to replace losses... or rather restore ships (that is far more expensive than building new ones) now that permamod ships will be a thing.

Player should have money to do space lord things like buy fleets, run an empire, or otherwise do things that require more than a single fleet to solve problems, not live like a pauper just because player is expected to pinch pennies to maintain his fleet.

P.S.  One million a month sounds like a lot, but it really is not.  That is worth two new capital ships from Orbital Works, or one battleship clunker restored; and that does not include the supplies or fuel needed to maintain ships on their grand sector tour.  If player is expected to go through meatgrinder fights like chain-battling Ordos with Radiants or even the very best human fleets on a regular basis late in the game, player will need a lot of money to replace the fallen (or reload the game frequently until he gets flawless victories.)  If I will lose money replacing ships, and story points are slow to come by (because newly built ships do not come with permamods), I know I will reload games a lot more like in pre-0.8a releases when stockpiling rare and good stuff was hard or tedious.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 09:05:08 AM by Megas »
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dead_hand

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Re: New Commerce
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2020, 10:28:53 AM »

I think instead of limiting income (which just adds an artificial hurdle that no one likes) it would make sense to have more things you can spend on?

Some ideas:
-be able to bribe fast pickets to let you go
-be able to pay off pirate fleets to not attack you (cost should increase based on reputation - low reputation => higher cost, as well as strength difference, e.g. a stronger fleet than you should want to extort more from you)
-be able to even perhaps buy ships from pirate/independent fleets if your standing with them is not already super ruined
-be able to bribe for temporary access to military markets
-be able to pay a pirate colony to hide on their planet for some time when you are being bounty hunted
etc. others can probably even come up with much better ideas :-)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 10:32:05 AM by dead_hand »
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Megas

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Re: New Commerce
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2020, 10:44:02 AM »

One more thing that came to mind.  Stability under 10 hurts population growth (and fleets).  If my primary focus is maximum population growth (so I can have a size 8+ colony in my lifetime), then Commerce is no good if it hurts population growth.  Since bigger colonies can be more profitable, Commerce could be a choice between short-term gain (more money now) vs. long term gain (bigger colony faster, another non-Commerce industry making exports), if -3 stability means less than 10 stability, especially if player eats other penalties like from pirate activity.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: New Commerce
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2020, 11:25:01 AM »

I think there will just be a lot more incentive to have multiple colonies in one system.2-3 high commands is enough to stop anything so then if you have 4-5 colonies in a system, you can start to add multiple commerce worlds to get your income up. I think it will make for interesting new priorities in colony choice.
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