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Author Topic: Split escort orders  (Read 2903 times)

Histidine

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Split escort orders
« on: July 12, 2019, 08:36:32 PM »

Recently an experienced player complained on Discord about a case where a Lasher escorting an unshielded mod carrier failed to protect it from a unidirectional threat and let it die instead. The old escort order might have prevented this.

Other people noted that as it is, whether in 0.8 or 0.9, the Escort order's behavior only covers one use case for "ship A follows ship B", when multiple such broad cases exist. There's also the issue of the tooltip not being able to communicate all the subtleties and not-so-subtleties of its behavior (again a problem with both old and new Escort).

On the other hand, we also don't want to increase the complexity the player is presented with more than necessary.

On the third hand, not having specific options to "do this particular thing" also adds complexity except in a worse way: it makes the player employ weird workarounds to get the behavior they want (one example mentioned was using an Escort order to keep ships together till they encounter an enemy, then cancelling it to let them fight independently).


To that end, I think the following would help:

1) Split Escort order into three orders, covering the broad use cases:
  • Escort: Focus on covering target's flanks and rear, but default to attacking if this is not needed. Like the current behavior but with some tweaks.
  • Screen: Previous version's escort behavior; allow the screener to take shots for the screenee. Should be default assignment when the target ship is civilian or a non-combat carrier.
  • Assist/Accompany: Follow target ship around on a short leash and perhaps try to attack its selected target, but otherwise act independently.
2) Instead of right-clicking instantly applying the default command, make it open a context menu with the available commands.
(This would also help with the thing when I try to give a combat carrier an Eliminate order but it gets Fighter Strike instead and I have to manually change it)

3) (Maybe) Remove heavy escort, because it just clutters the UI right now. I've never encountered a case where any vanilla or mod ship needs that much stern-covering, and if it does the player can just manually assign more ships to the medium escort.

4) Regardless of whether any of the above ideas are implemented, Escort order should be added to fleet command tutorial.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 08:54:37 PM by Histidine »
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Split escort orders
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2019, 08:37:32 PM »

I DESIRE

MORE COMMANDS
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Split escort orders
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2019, 08:43:23 PM »

re:2, wheel menus are *extremely* good at this.
My supports on every points made. Assist would be nice addition.
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Alex

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Re: Split escort orders
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2019, 08:45:39 PM »

It feels like (as you say) the escort behavior could be modified to be more intelligent in the "single-target + escortee is overmatched" scenario. I know exactly what you mean here and have seen it myself; let me make a note.

The "previous version's escort behavior" is, sadly, a combination of multiple bugs and confirmation bias on the part of players observing it; as such it can't really be reproduced (and wouldn't be good/reliable if it could be).

Been thinking about cleaning up the escort orders; it feels very much like a "select and right-click" type of situation. Probably one version of the escort command - that gets a bit more weight for larger ships - would do the job. As you say, Heavy just clutters things up, and so does medium, really.

Good point on the tutorial, too.
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AxleMC131

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Re: Split escort orders
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2019, 08:50:54 PM »

I have no issue with Escort being split into even three subcategories. I personally agree with the "Heavy Escort is just needless clutter" concept to the point that I'd be happy to see the Medium Escort go as well: We already have three individual Escort commands, and I would much prefer those three slots to be taken up by Histidine's suggestions rather than "three different sizes of [command]".

Also agree on the context menu, some of the default orders are a little strange IMHO (though that's probably subjective). You could probably do the same as we already can do with the drop down info on planets in the campaign map view: Just right clicking takes the top option, but if you hold the button down it brings up a list of applicable options which you can then select from. The same could be done for multiple Escort commands, among others.
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Inventor Raccoon

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Re: Split escort orders
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2019, 09:19:59 PM »

I agree fully with Histidine’s suggestions - I think it might be best to create variations of the order so that the AI isn’t forced to guess what you’ want it to do and avoiding the problem where any given AI only really works well for a given situation.

The current one is good for keeping flankers away so a ship can focus on its own targets, but if you just want ships to stay together you need to micromanage defend orders and if you want one ship to specifically follow a ship and attack its targets, you’re forced to micromanage eliminate orders.

I know this may increase complexity in the command menu but I think in this case it’s not a matter of potentially too many options, it’s that there’s not enough. The command menu also isn’t  particularly cluttered in any way, and tooltips could explain what it does and when you’d maybe use it.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 09:24:07 PM by Inventor Raccoon »
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Alex

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Re: Split escort orders
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2019, 09:25:31 PM »

The current one is good for keeping flankers away so a ship can focus on its own targets, but if you just want ships to stay together you need to micromanage defend orders and if you want one ship to specifically follow a ship and attack its targets, you’re forced to micromanage eliminate orders.

One of the problems here is that the other behaviors are tricky enough that it seems unlikely the AI will get it right if left entirely alone, and they're responses to changing tactical situations, anyway... so it feels like this would really result in micromanaging different types of escort orders instead.
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Cathair

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Re: Split escort orders
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2019, 10:13:31 PM »

Well, this pretty much sums up everything we were talking/complaining about in the Discord. Can't think of much else to add, in the way of broad topics. Thanks, Histidine!

The unintentional complexity created by having to work around things intended to reduce complexity in SS's whole AI command aspect is my biggest pet peeve about the entire game, has been for years. I really like this idea of expandable menus of some sort, to keep the current standard of low information intrusiveness and straightforward default commands, but allowing more granularity for players that go looking for it. What Histidine brought up here, about having better control over right-click attack orders, is a good example that I hadn't thought much about. Instead of having to jump through hoops of what to assign first via which set of buttons, just let me pick the behavior I want to assign.

Splitting up escort orders into at least one or two more degrees of aggression/vigilance is of particular concern though, because right now, micromanaging Defend orders is the only reliable way to keep your ships from getting divided and conquered when not fighting directly on a capture point. Would be nice to have better ways of keeping ships together on the move.


The "previous version's escort behavior" is, sadly, a combination of multiple bugs and confirmation bias on the part of players observing it; as such it can't really be reproduced (and wouldn't be good/reliable if it could be).
Huh, that's interesting to know! Ah well, a "be a meat shield for this ship" order was nice, but pretty niche.

Been thinking about cleaning up the escort orders; it feels very much like a "select and right-click" type of situation. Probably one version of the escort command - that gets a bit more weight for larger ships - would do the job. As you say, Heavy just clutters things up, and so does medium, really.
This is good to hear. In my experience, the AI usually makes profoundly terrible choices if allowed to choose escort ships on its own. Especially if you use these commands mid-battle; it'll often assign an escort that's currently halfway across the map from the target ship, because that's gonna help. So as someone who relies on manual right-click escort assignment, I can understand the need to have an automatic escort button at all, for circumstances like newer players who aren't sure what ships they should assign where. But having a whole set of redundant orders that most players aren't even gonna use is... yeah.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 10:16:08 PM by Cathair »
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Inventor Raccoon

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Re: Split escort orders
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2019, 11:49:20 PM »

One of the problems here is that the other behaviors are tricky enough that it seems unlikely the AI will get it right if left entirely alone, and they're responses to changing tactical situations, anyway... so it feels like this would really result in micromanaging different types of escort orders instead.
I see it more as depending on the two ships involved. The current escort is good if, say, I wanted to assign an Omen to a Dominator or Onslaught (where I want one ship to keep another ship freed from interruption). A “defend this ship” would be useful assigning a Hammerhead to an Astral (where I want a smaller ship to fight alongside another one directly). A “follow” order would be used on a Falcon and Eagle pair (where I want two ships to fight together but I don’t really care about them guarding each other, just that they stick together)

The AI should probably not be entirely rigid within any of the orders, anyway - an escort ship should still defend the escortee if there’s no other threats, a defending ship should fend off flankers if the escortee is just plinking away at a far target.

But then again, I imagine you could probably get this desired behavior using a single order (with the AI comparing the combat ability of it and the escortee and acting accordingly), the only worry is that it’d get it wrong and have the Sunder spend its time chasing away frigates when I want it to help the Dominator kill things.

Just generally spewing what I’m hoping to be able to do, there might be more elegant ways around it.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Split escort orders
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2019, 06:44:49 AM »

I strongly support Histidine's suggestion.

Maybe have only one command, "Assist", and make escort/screen/follow into stances on each ship. Could do that with three buttons if you treat Escort and Screen as one meta-button with three states: N/N - follow, Y/N - escort, and N/Y - screen; use Assist's tooltip to explain it.
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Megas

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Re: Split escort orders
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2019, 07:48:02 AM »

With current endgame fights, I like to have all ships stay very close together.  I often tell all of my ships to escort me, or a carrier that escorts me, so they can stay at the edge and retreat when peak performance inevitably times out.  I need to be able to retreat my ships immediately in long meatgrinder fights.  This is when I miss being able to order ships to stay at the edge of the map.  Now I need to camp at the edge to make my ships (escorting me to) do likewise.
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SCC

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Re: Split escort orders
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2019, 11:39:36 PM »

I support Hist's request for "just stick together" command, it will allow us to crease full kinetic/full high explosive loadouts with peace of mind that those ships will stick together. Another thing that I would like to see is some command of fighter escort, where ships with this command would automatically get assigned one interceptor or support fighter wing, without committing an entire carrier's worth of fighters and while also allowing the rest of the carrier to do its own thing. Better yet, I would like this command to be a part of pre-battle planning (along with things like automatic retreat when out of PPT or at low health) to reduce the management I have to do during the battle.