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Author Topic: Warship Balance  (Read 10715 times)

Wyvern

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Warship Balance
« on: July 09, 2019, 11:47:58 AM »

So, the question's come up repeatedly on the latest blog post of "Which ships need more ordnance points?"

I'm not going to try to answer that; instead, I present here a list of vanilla supposedly-war-worthy ships I won't (or don't like to) use.

Frigates
  • Brawler: Nope.  Just, nope.  This isn't a case of ordnance points; this is a case of it being an expendable weapons platform and I don't do expendable in my own fleet.  Special mention goes to the Tri-Tachyon variant that, if it installs max vents and safety overrides, still can't support a pair of pulse lasers.  The TT variant desperately needs an increase in flux dissipation and capacity, but otherwise these work well as things to fight; I don't think the base Brawler needs changes - even if I'm never going to use one myself.
  • Cerberus & Hound: Slightly better as extreme-range sniper platforms than the Brawler, but the lack of shields is just too much of a drawback - and installing a shield generator via hull mod actually makes them more fragile.  Suggested fix: the makeshift shield generator needs to come with either a much better efficiency - something like .6 flux per damage - or a significant improvement to flux capacity and dissipation.
  • Gremlin: Also nope.  Same reason as the Brawler: it's an expendable weapons platform and nope.
  • Hermes & Mercury: I'm not actually sure if these are even supposed to be combat-viable?  There was an era when I actually used them on occasion, but these days the niche of ultra-light harasser is much better filled with a Kite.
  • Hyperion: In the old days, this was my favorite frigate.  Then it got a teleporter that the AI can't use very well, and then it got utterly insane deployment and maintenance costs and it's just not worth it anymore.  I don't know how to fix the teleporter AI, but here are two suggestions: One, make it so that teleporting doesn't drop shields; that will cut down a lot on AI hyperions dying from just porting themselves into gunfire.  And two, give the system regenerating charges or a more significant cooldown and make the AI a bit less free with teleports; it should use them for long-distance travel (at regen rate rather than spamming), one teleport to get into attack position, and to retreat.  And even with that, I'd love to see something like a Pirate Hyperion that just loses the teleporter entirely in exchange for a bit lower maintenance cost and less of its CR eaten up on each deployment.
  • Lasher: These used to make good early-game SO boats - but if you go through the tutorial or take either accelerated start option, you're already past the point where I used them.  I'm not sure that there's anything exactly wrong with the Lasher per se?  But I don't find them fun to fly, nor do I find them to be particularly survivable as escorts, so I just... don't bother with them anymore.
  • Scarab: I want to like the Scarab.  It's a really neat ship!  It's just... not a good ship.  Could use a bit more flux dissipation, a bit more ordnance points, and built-in PD lasers in those useless side turret mounts that any sane player will leave empty.
  • Vigilance: In Ye Olde Days of Corvus, this was actually my favorite of the options for starting frigate.  It has not aged well.  Would benefit a lot from even a little bit more flux dissipation to support that medium energy slot... but the real problem with the Vigilance is that its ship system only really works well with salamanders, and putting salamanders on a Vigilance relegates it to a support role instead of a kill-things role.  My advice here: Drop harpoon pods back down to two missiles per salvo & give the Vigilance expanded missile racks as a free built-in hull mod.
  • Wayfarer: Not really sure what's a good solution here; the Wayfarer isn't terrible... but frigate-sized cargo ships in general are a bad deal, and if you want combat ability you're better off with a Lasher.
Destroyers
  • Condor: This thing used to be the standard for destroyer carriers.  Then the Drover showed up, and it's just better.  I don't actually think giving the Condor significantly improved combat stats is a good idea (though I'd suggest that, like the Vigilance, it should get expanded missile racks built in).  However, you know what would make me consider putting a Condor or two into my fleet?  If it had semi-decent logistical stats.  I mean, seriously, it's a converted freighter - why does it have less cargo space than the dedicated warship Drover?  Buff the Condor up to 140 cargo capacity and 80 fuel capacity, and it'll have a decent role as that thing you use when you want some fighters and are willing to trade off the Drover's system for a better logistics train and maybe some LRMs.  (And, while we're at it, drop the Drover down to 40 cargo capacity.)
  • Enforcer: These are probably okay?  I just don't like them.  If I happen to luck into an XIV Enforcer early, I'll use it, but that's about it.
  • Gemini: Okay, here is a ship that really, truly, just needs more ordnance points.  It has 55.  I'd like to see it with around 80 - enough to afford high quality weapons with enough points left over to get up to a decent flux dissipation and a good lot of capacitors or defensive hull mods.
  • Medusa: Another old favorite that's fallen by the wayside.  I'm not even really sure when or why or how that happened; it's not like the Medusa has gotten any worse... I guess it's just that its competition got better?  +10 or +20 ordnance points might make a difference here, pushing it into "you can fit everything you want and then a little bit extra" territory?  Or it might not, I'm really not sure.
  • Shrike: These work pretty well as opposition, but for player use they run into the same problem as the Brawler or the Gremlin: Shrikes just go pop.  Interestingly, there is in one of the mods a variant on the Shrike that I actually like: the Underworld's Cabal Shrike - though I do think a more balanced version would have the Cabal variant's stats, but with the pirate variant's weapon slot layout.
Cruiser
  • Gryphon: The only vanilla cruiser I just plain won't field (though the (non-pirate) Falcon comes close), the Gryphon just... well... does not measure up.  If I really want a large missile slot on the field, I'd rather use an Apogee; way more durability, more room for ECCM, expanded missile racks pushing it up to just as much ammo as the Gryphon starts with, and - as a nice bonus - good out-of-battle logistical stats.
    I'm not sure what the right fix here is, but I'd suggest looking into radical options.  Something like, oh, replace the ship system with fortress shield, and then give it a built-in hull mod that causes missile ammunition to slowly replenish over time (but only while CR is ticking down).  Or make it double as an EW platform, with ECM and Nav Relay built in alongside ECCM and Expanded Missile Racks.  Or introduce a Pather variant that gets a free Safety Overrides installation.  Or, I dunno, something.  Much like the Scarab, the Gryphon is a ship I want to like, but that just doesn't measure up in actual play.
Capitals
  • Astral: When even the default variants tend to leave weapon mounts empty, you know the ship needs more ordnance points.  It also needs Fighter Recall to be limited by charges rather than flux - the best Astral variants I've found tend to leave even more of its weapon slots empty in favor of maxing out flux vents and adding capacitors so it can just spam Recall as its main attack mode.
  • Atlas Mk II & Prometheus Mk II: I haven't actually tried either of these yet.  They could be okay?  I just don't know.  I do feel like the Atlas Mk II should have more than 200 cargo capacity left over, though - as with the Condor, that's less space than dedicated warships.  Maybe five or six hundred would feel right.
  • Onslaught: Yep.  That's right.  I don't use the Onslaught.  Well, I mean, okay, if I happen to find one floating along as a derelict and it's the only capital ship I have, then I'll put something together.  But that's about it.  There are a lot of things that annoy me about the Onslaught, from the way its flux dissipation level that cannot possibly keep up with its guns, to its awkward turret arcs that frequently cause the side-mounted large ballistics to fire at a frontal target they can't actually quite swivel far enough to hit... But the thing I most dislike about it is the sheer difference in capability between an Onslaught that has 4x annihilator rocket pod (and hasn't run out of ammo yet) and literally any other variant.  Maybe it would be better if the annihilator pod had a smaller ammo count - maybe 10? - and used chunk reload mechanics to do a full restore (20 ammo in a chunk so you get full ammo even with expanded missile racks) every 20 seconds?  Or something like that?  Maybe it would be better if the rockets had just a little bit of guidance, and spread out a bit more instead of coming in a solid stream that ends up blocking incoming attacks?  Maybe... I dunno.  I just know I don't like it.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Wyvern

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2019, 12:02:47 PM »

Oh hey.  I forgot the Venture.  It somehow didn't even occur to me that the Venture was supposed to be combat-worthy!  Um.  Oops?

Chalk that up as a second cruiser I won't use, then.  (I did make use of it back when it was a functional carrier, though!  So adding a few more ordnance points and an open fighter bay or two would be enough to make me at least consider fielding one.)
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TaLaR

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2019, 12:58:11 PM »

(all 'can kill' assessments are without skills)

Hyperion: it's worth it's price only when used properly by the player. If nerfed as you suggest, it would be simply useless. Teleporter not being limited by charges/etc is a feature - consider it in 3rd class of it's own as shielded/phase/Hyperion. Example usage: can solo the sim Paragon.
Lasher: it's perfect early game tool. Could be somewhat useful later if AI was actually competent at SO, but AI isn't. Example usage: can solo most DEs and some Cruisers.
Scarab: it can be useful to some extent when piloted by the player. But it's much harder to properly use than Hyperion or Afflictor, while being ultimately much less powerful. Example: can solo any DEs and rear-vulnerable CRs. Medusa is the most fun sample: you can bypass it's omni-shield with annihilators (launch while orbiting it with time acceleration, when executed properly they'll connect from multiple directions at roughly same time). Overall I agree that it doesn't live up to it's rarity.

Medusa: It's still the best player-piloting DE, though maybe by a smaller margin. It can kill any DE or CR, except carriers. Though Sunder and Hammerhead, while not as flexible, have easier time against some targets and are better at soloing carriers (especially Hammerhead).

Astral: Fine as is. Recall is the only thing that allows it to stand against other capitals. Nerfing Recall would make it unviable (I'd just always use Drovers/Herons instead).
Onslaught: It needs Annihilator spam to remain viable. It's already on bottom of pecking order for capitals even with them. Well... not necessary true for AI usage or vs crowds of weaker ships, but in terms of best player piloting performance in duels vs other capitals.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 01:06:27 PM by TaLaR »
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SCC

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2019, 01:18:56 PM »

Frigs
  • Brawler: I like Brawler very much and it survives more than other frigates, save for Centurion and Monitor. It's fine in the place it is now, maybe a little tight, but the bigger issue with it is that it's niche of destroyer-fighting frigate just doesn't last long enough. It might get more OP if it's supposed to be some sort of an elite frigate. I will not speak of Tri-Tachyon Brawler.
  • Cerberus & Hound: That proposed efficiency is pretty ridiculous. I think it might be more of an issue with MGS being balanced around those two ships, because I don't think any other shieldless ships need a reduction to their speed.
  • Hyperion: The issue with this ship is that it's too small and too short-lived for the player to make use of its strategic mobility, while phase ships are better at just nuking the enemy. And it's ridiculously expensive to boot.
  • Lasher: It's fine. It's got one of the best layouts for a frigate and it has enough OP to get all it needs. test
  • Scarab: I already said enough in the thread of my own about it.
  • Vigilance: I always thought of the Vigilance as of a support frigate. I put LRMs or Salamanders on it, complement with an Ion beam and let it hang out nearby. It would benefit from having a bubble shield, so that it doesn't have to rely on other ships as much.
Destroyahs
  • Condor: it's cheap, but it has nothing else going for it. It could get some logistic stats or OP buff, but I don't think it really needs them, it might just be the Drover that's too good.
  • Enforcer: It's on the edge of being too light a ship to rely on armour. It doesn't mesh well with my playstyle and overall they're just boring. I don't know if the flux stats and/or shield are too weak, they might be, but I would be cautious with buffing yet another destroyer.
  • Medusa: I think it's fine. It might just be Hammerhead that's so good.
  • Shrike: In comparison to Tempest, it's not clearly a better choice. If it's supposed to be a beam boat, then yes, but if it's supposed to be a line or a strike ship, then it's not significantly more mobile, while being more likely to get in a mess and due to reliance on missiles, has only so many uses. Another issue is that pirate shrike's hybrid mount offers a very substantial advantage when dealing with shields, so much that I consider it superior to the regular one, but I already talked about that, too.
Cruiz
  • Gryphon: it's a support ship for AI and an absolute murder machine in the hands of the player. It's pretty hard to balance.
  • Venture: it's just a hard to kill brick with some burst capability, which is enough for some people... I don't like it on a principle, like all other combat freighters (save for Apogee, which is actually decent in combat).
Caps
  • Astral: it's not that bad to leave mounts empty - it's a dedicated carrier and if anything got close to pose a danger, it should either got dealt with by the escorts, or you screwed up a really big time. All dedicated carriers' main weapons are fighters.
  • Onslaught: I can't fly it myself, but it functions well enough for AI. Annihilator complaint could be filed for Dominator, too, but I don't think it's bad either of these can use annihilators like that. You can replace annihilators with sabots and it will be strong as well, just in a bit different way. I imagine other missiles don't help with stand off as much as annihilators do, though.

intrinsic_parity

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2019, 01:51:03 PM »

I think hammerhead and sunder are both better options for the player than the medusa for fleet combat. Hammerhead because of SO assault chain guns which is ridiculously broken, and sunder because it just kills things a lot faster (I usually throw SO on this early game as well but it doesn't need it to be really good). Every time I use the medusa, I feel like it takes forever to kill anything and my fleet is slowly losing the battle while it struggle to whittle things down with unimpressive medium energy weapons. The maneuverability is really strong the but the weapons just feel so weak. It's so slow in comparison to SO assault chain guns or a damage boosted large energy weapon. I rarely find it worthwhile to buy a medusa and I see them in the wild equally rarely so I barely use them anymore.

I think a lot of carriers are in a tough place OP wise. None of them feel like they can fit high end fighters without totally sacrificing everything else on the ship. I have to leave weapon mounts empty throw away all hull mods except the carrier ones and cut almost all vents/caps to fit the best fighters. I think most of the dedicated carriers could use some extra OP, just to make the good fighters usable without gutting the loadout. Maybe that's by design but losing OP is not the direction I would go with carriers, I don't want to have to get built in hull mods on every carrier want to use nice fighters on. Carriers feel like they are balanced around ~8 OP fighters.

The lasher is mostly in a bad place because you start with a hammerhead and a decent fleet in the tutorial. I don't think it's OP is a concern.

I would also add the doom as a ship where I never have anywhere near enough OP to put the things I want on. It could use an extra ~10-15 imo. But it's system is also super strong so it's in a weird place. I would nerf the system a bit and give it some extra OP, but that's just me.

Shrike as everyone has said is pretty bad, but honestly any ship that uses medium energy as its main damage source feels weak to some degree and I think that's because of the lack of an efficient low flux cost medium energy weapon. Shrike, wolf, tt brawler, medusa, and vigilance all depend on medium energy weapons. I think the addition of one medium energy weapon aimed at being good on these ships (low flux cost, somewhat efficient) could solve that problem by itself without major OP balance changes. Current medium energy weapons require lots of dissipation which means lots of OP is tied up in vents and some hull mods to make the ship useful at all. Theres no decision to be made there. I would like to see that change.
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Megas

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2019, 02:05:05 PM »

Brawler is hard to justify because it has no defenses whatsoever.  It cannot defend against Salamanders, and once one of them connects, it becomes hopelessly crippled before the enemy finishes it off.

Cerberus and Hound are practically haulers that can be made to run from nearly anything.  With Makeshift Shields, they can be disposable attackers much like Enforcer, Mule, and Shrike (P).  If they die (and not used for hauling), who cares?  Past early-game, they are obsolete like nearly every other frigate.

Gremlin is the civilian phase ship.  I would bring it if I need to sneak-and-raid Sindria/Culann for blueprints, but I do not have other phase ships available (unlikely since New Maxios has all of the phase ship blueprints, and New Maxios is practically undefended).  As for combat, it is probably like the others not named Doom - good only as a glorified bomber, which only the player can use effectively.

Hermes/Mercury are from a bygone era when fleet size was determined by Logistics instead of a fleet cap.

Hyperion is not very useful today now that 1) enemy fires at phased ships (which includes teleportation) and 2) huge multi-capital fights where lack of peak performance hurts Hyperion very badly.  Today, I much rather use four Reaper Afflictor if I need an elite frigate to kill something big fast.  Endgame fights in 0.9 are much bigger than endgame fights of pre-0.8.

Lasher is decent as a frigate.  The problem is nearly every frigate becomes obsolete past early game.

Scarab would be easier to use if it had 360 front shields instead of 180 omni shields.

Wayfarer is almost obsolete as a combatant as soon as the game begins.  With Apogee start, it is usually the first to die every time, and I keep it only because of its capacity, but it gets dumped as soon as I can.  It is vulnerable to attacks from behind.

The only frigates I care to use as combatants early are Centurion and Wolf.  Late in the game, the only frigates I care about are Tempest and Afflictor.  Tempest for being fast and powerful, and Afflictor for doing Reaper cheese Harbinger used to do.

Wolf has barely enough OP with Loadout Design 3.  It needs better flux stats.


Even though Condor is inferior to Drover, it still gets the job done.  Condor is good enough to use until player can find better carriers.

Enforcers have the advantage of being ubiquitous, and they (along with Mules and Shrike (P)) form the backbone of my early game AI fleet until they get phased out by better ships later in the game.  They are decent bricks with decent firepower.  They are probably not as good as Hammerhead, and are a bit sluggish to pilot, but they work well enough earlier in the game.

Gemini is OP starved.  It is not one of those ships I want to use if I have other alternatives.  With Reserve Deployment significantly weakened in 0.9.x, it is not that good of a carrier anymore.

Medusa either should get more OP, better flux stats, or have its cost dropped to 10 or 11... or Light Needler range restored to 800.  It needs rare weapons (like railguns) to do anything useful, and even then, it is maybe slightly above par.  By the time I can obtain Medusa, it has become obsolete, and I need cruisers to fight.

Shrike is seriously OP starved, especially the superior pirate version.  I cannot fit a basic loadout without Loadout Design 3.  Even with LD3, something gets cut.  Shrike (P) is about as common as Enforcers, and they do a decent job bullying small ships.  Normal Shrike, by the time I can access those, they are obsolete.  As for Shrike, it probably should get the hybrid used by Shrike (P), and Shrike (P) could either have reduced OP or have the hybrid downgraded to energy.  As for in the game, Shrike (P) is about as common as Enforcers, and they too get used frequently early in the game, only to be replaced later.


Gryphon is simply too fragile.  I rarely use it if I loot one early and turn it into a Hammer suicide bomber, sort of like a extra large Enforcer.  The main reason I would like to use Gryphon is it is the only ship aside from Legion (XIV) and maybe Prometheus 2 that can easily aim dumb-fire large missiles like Hammers and fire them at the enemy.

Aurora needs its 0.8 flux stats back.


Astral is great.  I consider it the #2 most powerful ship in the game, behind Paragon.

Atlas 2 is really slow and awkward to use.  Very sub-optimal to use.  Good only if it is the first capital you find and you are desperate for capital-grade firepower.

Prometheus 2 feels a bit like a Blackrock capital, only much slower and without the teleporter Karkinos has.  It is still sub-par compared to other capitals, but it is not too terrible, and its DP cost of 32 seems about right.

My biggest gripe with Onslaught is the TPCs and heavy mounts do not overlap well.  If I want to outfit it for AI use, I need to focus on the TPCs, because the AI does not tilt the ship to focus fire two heavy weapons at enemies (except maybe Hellbores occasionally).  As for Annihilator Pods, they run out far too quickly in 0.9's endgame fights against ten enemy capitals and more.  I find myself gravitating toward Typhoon Reapers, Salamanders, or even Swarmers with Expanded Missile Racks.  Another big gripe is I need to put Augmented Engines on it (while I may not need to on Conquest), and with that much OP gone, it has an OP budget comparable to Conquest.  Overall, I do not mind Onslaught, and it is useful enough.

Odyssey is an annoying ship.  AI likes to burn drive into mobs while its lack of defenses make it vulnerable to damage easily.  Also, it is a bit OP starved.  Would like to see stronger shield (or more armor), better flux capacity, or more OP.  At the very least, more idiot-proof to use by AI.  Currently, Odyssey is only useful as a playership because only the player is smart enough to not burn into a mob and try to tank everything thrown at it by the enemy like the AI does.

Quote
I think a lot of carriers are in a tough place OP wise. None of them feel like they can fit high end fighters without totally sacrificing everything else on the ship. I have to leave weapon mounts empty throw away all hull mods except the carrier ones and cut almost all vents/caps to fit the best fighters. I think most of the dedicated carriers could use some extra OP, just to make the good fighters usable without gutting the loadout. Maybe that's by design but losing OP is not the direction I would go with carriers, I don't want to have to get built in hull mods on every carrier want to use nice fighters on. Carriers feel like they are balanced around ~8 OP fighters.

I would also add the doom as a ship where I never have anywhere near enough OP to put the things I want on. It could use an extra ~10-15 imo. But it's system is also super strong so it's in a weird place. I would nerf the system a bit and give it some extra OP, but that's just me.
I am not fond of carriers because they generally need to sacrifice almost everything to use fighters bigger than Talons, but despite that, they can wreck enemies.  For Astral, I use six bombers, and it only has five heavy burst lasers, and it still wrecks ships fast.  However, it is not satisfying when carriers must be practically unarmed to use fighters effectively.  In the old days, it was fun watching Heron brawl like a Wolf or Tempest while fighters did stuff, and kill ships.  Today, Heron needs to stay in the backline and let fighters do the work.

Doom does not really need much for weapons.  All it really needs are two Heavy Blasters and maybe burst PD, and between that and mines, it can do serious damage.  That said, either I need to give up Hardened Subsystems or four mortars and some vents.  Doom with LD3 is not too OP starved like some other ships, but I would not mind more OP, especially now that LD3 will be gone.
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Kanil

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2019, 02:11:01 PM »

I recently had a playthrough to about level 40 with just a Medusa and two Tempests, and I don't think it's bad. While it doesn't have the raw firepower of a Hammerhead, it's got great mobility and is still generally fun to pilot.
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Megas

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2019, 02:12:33 PM »

One more thing that annoys me about Odyssey.  It is highly encouraged to focus all firepower to the left.  The right large is a synergy, and player probably wants to support the two left heavies with Locusts or MIRVs from the right.  It would be nice if the right missile was turned into a synergy or even universal (and be allowed to mount non-missiles there) so player can do two broadsides like Conquest instead of only effectively attacking things left of it.
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Goumindong

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2019, 02:58:48 PM »

OK so...

Not all ships in the game have to have the same purpose. You cannot "balance" a large number of ships against each other in the way you seem to be implying they should be. Some can be weaker on purpose because they're meant to be obsoleted as you progress. Some can have very specific uses

The brawler for instance is just fine. Its really good at taking out larger ships because it can fit more efficient (but less accurate) weapons in its hardpoints. The TT brawler is as well, except its super good at chasing enemies down. And of course the LP brawler is just insane.

The gryphon is another good example. Its not a front line cruiser its a finisher... And its pretty to really good at that if you have a missile skilled officer. The main advantage here is that its extreme range means that, fit with finishing weapons, it will ruin enemy ships as soon as their shields drop.

And the Medusa and the shrike... I don't know how you do poorly with these ships. They're both very very good.

Maybe the problem is that you remember the Medusa back when you ran combat skills. And now that you do not run combat skills anymore you are comparing its effectiveness back when you did to now, when you do not. Because you can still fit 2 heavy blasters on a Medusa... and it still wrecks face with 2 heavy blasters. (moreso than a hammerhead even because its teleporting allows it to more efficiently apply damage)

One more thing that annoys me about Odyssey.  It is highly encouraged to focus all firepower to the left.  The right large is a synergy, and player probably wants to support the two left heavies with Locusts or MIRVs from the right.  It would be nice if the right missile was turned into a synergy or even universal (and be allowed to mount non-missiles there) so player can do two broadsides like Conquest instead of only effectively attacking things left of it.

Please stop trying to get the strongest ship in the game made stronger.
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Megas

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2019, 03:09:34 PM »

Please stop trying to get the strongest ship in the game made stronger.
I disagree with this.  Odyssey is okay in player hands (but strongest, I do not think so), but terrible in AI.
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Eji1700

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2019, 03:49:12 PM »

So, the question's come up repeatedly on the latest blog post of "Which ships need more ordnance points?"

I'm not going to try to answer that; instead, I present here a list of vanilla supposedly-war-worthy ships I won't (or don't like to) use.

Frigates
  • Brawler: Nope.  Just, nope.  This isn't a case of ordnance points; this is a case of it being an expendable weapons platform and I don't do expendable in my own fleet.  Special mention goes to the Tri-Tachyon variant that, if it installs max vents and safety overrides, still can't support a pair of pulse lasers.  The TT variant desperately needs an increase in flux dissipation and capacity, but otherwise these work well as things to fight; I don't think the base Brawler needs changes - even if I'm never going to use one myself.
You should use them more, they're ok.  I think they could still use some love (the TT variant is sad) but you're being overly harsh.  They fill and allright role as is.

Quote
  • Cerberus & Hound: Slightly better as extreme-range sniper platforms than the Brawler, but the lack of shields is just too much of a drawback - and installing a shield generator via hull mod actually makes them more fragile.  Suggested fix: the makeshift shield generator needs to come with either a much better efficiency - something like .6 flux per damage - or a significant improvement to flux capacity and dissipation.
  • Gremlin: Also nope.  Same reason as the Brawler: it's an expendable weapons platform and nope.
Gremlin is a great ship in human hands early game.  Take it out on a fleet that can flux things for your and you get to do some really nice alpha's then retreat it out and switch to your flagship. Dunno how the AI handles it, I should test, but seriously underrating it.

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  • Hermes & Mercury: I'm not actually sure if these are even supposed to be combat-viable?  There was an era when I actually used them on occasion, but these days the niche of ultra-light harasser is much better filled with a Kite.
  • Hyperion: In the old days, this was my favorite frigate.  Then it got a teleporter that the AI can't use very well, and then it got utterly insane deployment and maintenance costs and it's just not worth it anymore.  I don't know how to fix the teleporter AI, but here are two suggestions: One, make it so that teleporting doesn't drop shields; that will cut down a lot on AI hyperions dying from just porting themselves into gunfire.  And two, give the system regenerating charges or a more significant cooldown and make the AI a bit less free with teleports; it should use them for long-distance travel (at regen rate rather than spamming), one teleport to get into attack position, and to retreat.  And even with that, I'd love to see something like a Pirate Hyperion that just loses the teleporter entirely in exchange for a bit lower maintenance cost and less of its CR eaten up on each deployment.
I feel like the hyperion is mostly fine given its niche role as "super frigate".  I just wish there was one for each tech level or team, but as a teleporting alpha striker it's insane, and yes suicidal in AI hands.

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  • Lasher: These used to make good early-game SO boats - but if you go through the tutorial or take either accelerated start option, you're already past the point where I used them.  I'm not sure that there's anything exactly wrong with the Lasher per se?  But I don't find them fun to fly, nor do I find them to be particularly survivable as escorts, so I just... don't bother with them anymore.
  • Scarab: I want to like the Scarab.  It's a really neat ship!  It's just... not a good ship.  Could use a bit more flux dissipation, a bit more ordnance points, and built-in PD lasers in those useless side turret mounts that any sane player will leave empty.
  • Vigilance: In Ye Olde Days of Corvus, this was actually my favorite of the options for starting frigate.  It has not aged well.  Would benefit a lot from even a little bit more flux dissipation to support that medium energy slot... but the real problem with the Vigilance is that its ship system only really works well with salamanders, and putting salamanders on a Vigilance relegates it to a support role instead of a kill-things role.  My advice here: Drop harpoon pods back down to two missiles per salvo & give the Vigilance expanded missile racks as a free built-in hull mod.
  • Wayfarer: Not really sure what's a good solution here; the Wayfarer isn't terrible... but frigate-sized cargo ships in general are a bad deal, and if you want combat ability you're better off with a Lasher.

Agree with the rest of this for the most part.  Overall i think there's just a general issue of frigates being unimpressive even if you focus them.  Hopefully some of the new skills help that but it wouldn't hurt to have a better niche for some of these.

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Destroyers
  • Condor: This thing used to be the standard for destroyer carriers.  Then the Drover showed up, and it's just better.  I don't actually think giving the Condor significantly improved combat stats is a good idea (though I'd suggest that, like the Vigilance, it should get expanded missile racks built in).  However, you know what would make me consider putting a Condor or two into my fleet?  If it had semi-decent logistical stats.  I mean, seriously, it's a converted freighter - why does it have less cargo space than the dedicated warship Drover?  Buff the Condor up to 140 cargo capacity and 80 fuel capacity, and it'll have a decent role as that thing you use when you want some fighters and are willing to trade off the Drover's system for a better logistics train and maybe some LRMs.  (And, while we're at it, drop the Drover down to 40 cargo capacity.)
I see condors as the poor mans carrier and it's mostly ok with that.  If you want to crack pirate bases loading 3+ of these up with LRMS and pirahana's is a pretty cheap and effective way to handle things, but I do think that "bringing the right fleet for the job" style play needs to be more encouraged if that's the intent.

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  • Enforcer: These are probably okay?  I just don't like them.  If I happen to luck into an XIV Enforcer early, I'll use it, but that's about it.
  • Gemini: Okay, here is a ship that really, truly, just needs more ordnance points.  It has 55.  I'd like to see it with around 80 - enough to afford high quality weapons with enough points left over to get up to a decent flux dissipation and a good lot of capacitors or defensive hull mods.
  • Medusa: Another old favorite that's fallen by the wayside.  I'm not even really sure when or why or how that happened; it's not like the Medusa has gotten any worse... I guess it's just that its competition got better?  +10 or +20 ordnance points might make a difference here, pushing it into "you can fit everything you want and then a little bit extra" territory?  Or it might not, I'm really not sure.
  • Shrike: These work pretty well as opposition, but for player use they run into the same problem as the Brawler or the Gremlin: Shrikes just go pop.  Interestingly, there is in one of the mods a variant on the Shrike that I actually like: the Underworld's Cabal Shrike - though I do think a more balanced version would have the Cabal variant's stats, but with the pirate variant's weapon slot layout.

I'll just add that I think the shrike really should be more fun to pilot.  It's the sort of ship that you'd think would shine in player hands, but it often feels like more of a struggle than it should be, maybe in part because of it's struggle with weapons loadout mixed with flankers feeling weak when enemy AI is smart enough to group up properly.

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Cruiser
  • Gryphon: The only vanilla cruiser I just plain won't field (though the (non-pirate) Falcon comes close), the Gryphon just... well... does not measure up.  If I really want a large missile slot on the field, I'd rather use an Apogee; way more durability, more room for ECCM, expanded missile racks pushing it up to just as much ammo as the Gryphon starts with, and - as a nice bonus - good out-of-battle logistical stats.
    I'm not sure what the right fix here is, but I'd suggest looking into radical options.  Something like, oh, replace the ship system with fortress shield, and then give it a built-in hull mod that causes missile ammunition to slowly replenish over time (but only while CR is ticking down).  Or make it double as an EW platform, with ECM and Nav Relay built in alongside ECCM and Expanded Missile Racks.  Or introduce a Pather variant that gets a free Safety Overrides installation.  Or, I dunno, something.  Much like the Scarab, the Gryphon is a ship I want to like, but that just doesn't measure up in actual play.

I can't disagree more about this.  The gryphon is borderline broken in player hands and still a great missile support ship in AI, especially if paired with a fleet that deals good flu.  There's plenty of ways to kit it out and i'd almost never prefer and apogee for the roles i'm using them for.  Two totally different ships.

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Capitals
  • Astral: When even the default variants tend to leave weapon mounts empty, you know the ship needs more ordnance points.  It also needs Fighter Recall to be limited by charges rather than flux - the best Astral variants I've found tend to leave even more of its weapon slots empty in favor of maxing out flux vents and adding capacitors so it can just spam Recall as its main attack mode.
  • Atlas Mk II & Prometheus Mk II: I haven't actually tried either of these yet.  They could be okay?  I just don't know.  I do feel like the Atlas Mk II should have more than 200 cargo capacity left over, though - as with the Condor, that's less space than dedicated warships.  Maybe five or six hundred would feel right.
  • Onslaught: Yep.  That's right.  I don't use the Onslaught.  Well, I mean, okay, if I happen to find one floating along as a derelict and it's the only capital ship I have, then I'll put something together.  But that's about it.  There are a lot of things that annoy me about the Onslaught, from the way its flux dissipation level that cannot possibly keep up with its guns, to its awkward turret arcs that frequently cause the side-mounted large ballistics to fire at a frontal target they can't actually quite swivel far enough to hit... But the thing I most dislike about it is the sheer difference in capability between an Onslaught that has 4x annihilator rocket pod (and hasn't run out of ammo yet) and literally any other variant.  Maybe it would be better if the annihilator pod had a smaller ammo count - maybe 10? - and used chunk reload mechanics to do a full restore (20 ammo in a chunk so you get full ammo even with expanded missile racks) every 20 seconds?  Or something like that?  Maybe it would be better if the rockets had just a little bit of guidance, and spread out a bit more instead of coming in a solid stream that ends up blocking incoming attacks?  Maybe... I dunno.  I just know I don't like it.

Disagree again on the Onslaught.  I've made plenty of variants that are great at just boosting in and chewing up anything that isn't fast enough to run away, or just sitting there and soaking damage relying on the builtins + some mild support to keep pressure up.  I think it's a great hull.
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Alex

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2019, 06:59:56 PM »

(Thank you for getting this thread going! Keeping a close eye on it.)
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Thaago

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2019, 12:04:09 AM »

I find the Enforcer to be only acceptable in 'trash' fleets: its 4 missile mounts give it decent support firepower even when it has 9 D mods. As a combat destroyer though, its horribly outclassed by all of the others. I'd recommend giving it a 1.0 shield to bring it in line with the Dominator and Onslaught.

(Enforcer used to be amazing when it could stack two speed bonuses with no range penalties. Now thats not a thing and its speed is a liability,)
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TaLaR

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2019, 12:17:24 AM »

Enforcer can do ok, if it commits to attack without withholding sabots or armor/hull, but still has a lot of problems cornering a Medusa even then. Heavy armor + flaks make it much better than Medusa vs carriers too (though Hammerhead is still the best at handling carriers among DEs).
Enforcer is pretty annoying to fight against, when it has converted hangar talons (which it can easily afford due to highest OP among DEs), so I consider CH Talons default for them.

Overall theme of this ship is controlled burn of limited resources: missiles/armor/hull, it can't get a clean victory against pretty much anything. Which means AI is bad at using it, since it begins to fall back as soon as shields begin failing. While player has enough of better ships to pilot.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Warship Balance
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2019, 12:17:47 AM »

The entire problem with the Cerberus and Hound is that makeshift shields makes them slow. That's the entire issue; they could be okay combat-freighter grade ships if makeshift shields didn't make them slow, and they were okay combat-freighter grade ships when makeshift shields didn't make ships slow.

I like the idea of giving the Condor better logistics and the Drover worse logistics.

The Scarab needs bloated stats to make up for relying on small energies. It doesn't have those bloated stats, so it's bad.

I stopped using the Medusa mostly because I can't find any of the damn things. They're not bad, they're just impossible to get your hands on before you're running a fleet of capitals and cruisers. If I luck into a Medusa blueprint early, and have also started an early colony, they're great right up until I'm in the very lategame and mashing my capitalball against other capitalballs.

I think the Shrike is fine. Good, even. I make heavy use of the Shrike in the earlygame, as it's the biggest baddest 10 burn ship and I want to go as fast as I can until I can't anymore. The AI doesn't suicide it anymore, it eats frigates alive and has the speed to avoid dueling destroyers until it can engage in a 2v1. It does exactly what it's supposed to do, and I like it a lot. The Shrike (P) is better than the base version, so either the (P) should be slightly nerfed or the base version slightly buffed, but it doesn't need too much of a change.

I flatly disagree with everything you've said about the Gryphon and the Onslaught. They're great.
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