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Author Topic: Skills and Story Points  (Read 91788 times)

captinjoehenry

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #405 on: October 01, 2019, 05:41:53 PM »

Will the new skills be adjustable via a settings file?  As I know I'm personally a massive fan of capital on capital action in the late game and I would really love to be able to edit the settings for the skills so that they function with a capital centric fleet because as you've said so far the default settings are more set up for a few capitals instead of a lot of them like I enjoy for the big epic fights you can get into.
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kenwth81

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #406 on: October 02, 2019, 01:33:02 AM »

The game should be good without mods.  If I pay money for a game, I want a game, not a game engine that needs third party support to polish it up.  I should not need to rely on mods to have a good game.  If I need to mod a commercial game to have a good game, I rather play make-believe and say "I WIN! GAME OVER!" and look for a better game that does not need mods (or a free game where community support and development from anyone with the dedication is the point).

Respec during the game means I do not need (to make or download) a third-party tool to cheat that feature in for me.


You kinda already paid for an unfinished game. In most game, Respec isn't an intergrated part of game and often require third-party tool to do so. Story points isn't really close to a full respec either, it is closer to a skill refund. I do not know whether other features from the mods will be added but certainly hope so. Considering the limitation of a small Indie developer, people shouldn't be overly demanding.  It is better for developers to start small and gradually expand their game; which meant things that isn't done, could be done, need to be done or left out would fall into the hand of modders.

If you under the impression Commercial games mean quality, I wouldn't think so. Many gaming companies are delivering bad unfinished games full of bugs, then sell you the rest of the game as DLC, has terrible business practices and poor customer service because it is often profitable doing so.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 02:00:38 AM by kenwth81 »
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Megas

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #407 on: October 02, 2019, 09:47:14 AM »

Respec is not in yet, but it will next release via story point use.  Giving how long the game is and how specialized some builds are, I think it is a welcome (anti-frustration) addition.  No longer do I need to hoard points due to decision paralysis, or have buyer's remorse after spending a point in crutch skills or skills that become obsolete by endgame, or try to grind (or cheat) up multiple characters.

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Considering the limitation of a small Indie developer, people shouldn't be overly demanding.
Unfortunately, that will probably be unavoidable if or when Starsector hits mainstream.  Starsector really needs to be top-notch to set itself apart from the mass of other forgettable games.

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If you under the impression Commercial games mean quality, I wouldn't think so. Many gaming companies are delivering bad unfinished games full of bugs, then sell you the rest of the game as DLC, has terrible business practices and poor customer service because it is often profitable doing so.
Which is a reason why I mostly abstained from modern gaming since the last decade.  It was not always like this.

During the 80s and 90s, DLC was not possible when there was no internet.  Just plug in a cartridge or CD and play.  Sure, there were occasional "Obvious Beta" or rushed titles, and those were given bad reviews (and joked about if memorable).  There was incentive for a game to be finished before it was released.  Early games in arcades sometimes got updates, but those were minor and generally patched exploits.

For other merchandise, I can expect a finished product that works.  I buy an appliance, I get what I pay for.  For other entertainment like DVDs, Blu-Rays, and music CDs, I put a tape, cartridge, or disc in the player and it plays.  Old games used to be like this, but not anymore.  Instead, player needs an account, then suffers the update treadmill; I do not want to play that game.

P.S.  I suppose modern gaming reminds me of trading card games with intentional power creep.  Player spends so much money on the good rare cards, then next season, his good cards are mediocre compared to new stuff (or banned in official play for being too powerful), and needs to buy the next season of rare cards if he wants to keep up.  Repeat for follow-up seasons.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 10:01:29 AM by Megas »
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #408 on: October 02, 2019, 01:54:40 PM »

Will the new skills be adjustable via a settings file?  As I know I'm personally a massive fan of capital on capital action in the late game and I would really love to be able to edit the settings for the skills so that they function with a capital centric fleet because as you've said so far the default settings are more set up for a few capitals instead of a lot of them like I enjoy for the big epic fights you can get into.

It's not a text file tweak, but it can be done with a simple mod that changes some static variables (where those thresholds are specified).

You could also still get a bunch of capitals! You'd just get lower bonuses per ship, but, I mean, more capital ships is still more capital ships.
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Morrokain

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #409 on: October 02, 2019, 04:10:28 PM »

I really like Story Points as a concept and many of the planned implementations of them seem like a great step toward character definition! I'm excited for that change.  ;D

The issue with giving story points for actions is the player would feel like they *have* to do these actions for the story point reward. Imagine needing to respond to every distress call - and to your earlier point, some of the things the player would feel forced to do would likely go against the sort of character they're roleplaying.

It pretty much has to be tied to something more abstract and general-purpose (i.e. XP). In any case, part of the reason they exist is to give you a little more of a reward as you gain XP - since there are fewer levels, and they take longer to gain, since overall XP is similar-ish, so decoupling them from XP would be counter to that goal.

Hmm. Ok, I definitely get the idea of making experience gain more rewarding if it takes longer to level. But the first part? I am little less sold there (surprise surprise the lore guy wants it to be tied to lore, right?  :D ). Care to discuss a little if you have time?

My assumption(correct me if otherwise) is this conclusion was made because missions and events can sometimes feel hard to find for some players or they simply want to ignore them. This is especially true for those venturing away from the Core Worlds for long periods of time (other than distress calls). That makes sense to me.

I don't think this necessarily means that a player would inevitably always feel obligated to do everything they came across, however, if some events gave unique rewards like that. From my viewpoint, that really depends upon the nature of the design. If everything you do in the game results in story points anyway, then choosing not to do something doesn't feel like you are missing out as long as its because you want to do something else that contains roughly the same reward. Experience works this way already and I get that's a factor in tying it to there as well.

Would the same issue exist if both were possible? It kind of depends upon how valuable/universal story points are when tied to the things you can do with them in the campaign. If they effect everything and you always want more then yeah that could be problematic unless actions from every play style would result in story points. Hmm, but that kind of seems to be double dipping the design implementation and dev effort merely for the sake of less abstraction (As a player preference I typically dislike abstraction and consider it a necessary evil that should be avoided whenever possible)...

I don't know, now I'm second guessing myself to be honest, haha.  8)

!!Campaign Spoilers Ahead!!
Spoiler
As an aside, I will say the idea of making Distress Calls more attractive is something I would appreciate rather than resent. But yeah definitely not as a must-do thing.

I always ignore them right now- mostly because in my experience they are more often than not overwhelming pirate ambushes I have no hope of stopping or escaping if I investigate (last time I really bothered was before jump point warnings were a thing) and even now that I'm warned I don't want to waste the fuel or supplies. That and the reward for saving someone from what I remember seemed underwhelming considering the risk. I mean, sure, the good feels are there from a roleplaying perspective, but the cruel, calculating warlord in me recognizes that logistically its a wash even to check unless its directly in my path anyway. I won't even make small course diversions for them anymore and I role-play a do-gooder hero most of the time.

That said, if the dialogue surrounding the interaction is used like Rules would imply then there is some really neat nuance there that I appreciate. That is, ironically, the very thought I had when reading about story points; "Wow, that would sure make me want to take the risk of saving people more if I could actually use that good will for cool things."

Right now, there are only very limited ways (without mods) to increase your reputation with a specific patrol captain and even if you do there isn't much benefit to it since they aren't permanent for patrols. Faction rep is certainly more useful... but there are way easier ways to do that and that alone doesn't directly translate into a "do good deeds and people like you more" kind of feel. It just helps.
[close]

I probably just need to get around to implementing the notoriety system I've been wanting to make for a long time. Things always seem to get in the way though lol.
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #410 on: October 02, 2019, 04:22:21 PM »

I don't think this necessarily means that a player would inevitably always feel obligated to do everything they came across, however, if some events gave unique rewards like that. From my viewpoint, that really depends upon the nature of the design. If everything you do in the game results in story points anyway, then choosing not to do something doesn't feel like you are missing out as long as its because you want to do something else that contains roughly the same reward. Experience works this way already and I get that's a factor in tying it to there as well.

Would the same issue exist if both were possible? It kind of depends upon how valuable/universal story points are when tied to the things you can do with them in the campaign. If they effect everything and you always want more then yeah that could be problematic unless actions from every play style would result in story points. Hmm, but that kind of seems to be double dipping the design implementation and dev effort merely for the sake of less abstraction (As a player preference I typically dislike abstraction and consider it a necessary evil that should be avoided whenever possible)...

Right, yeah - either it's universal (and then why not tie it into XP? not exactly the same, but close enough) or (more likely) it's not, and then it really shapes what the player will want to do. I'm just not crazy about those kinds of meta-incentives - you end up with some regardless of what you do, really, but I don't want to add major ones on purpose.
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Morrokain

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #411 on: October 02, 2019, 05:29:47 PM »

Right, yeah - either it's universal (and then why not tie it into XP? not exactly the same, but close enough)

I guess my thought was that if you tie it to events it adds an extra layer of character definition from a role-playing standpoint because it adds context from a personal story based on player choice. The benefit to this would be both sides of the system operate to streamline immersion instead of all the impetus being on the using story points side rather than also including the gaining story points side. That, in turn, could also be further supported through dialogue around gaining a point (so much less abstract than something like XP and more tied to immersion was the reason). As an admittedly bad example AI cores operate this way but they are not meant to be a universal resource. They are specifically lore tied and do kind of serve as a light meta-incentive. I felt that story points could serve in this way as well but also function as a universal resource. Maybe fuel or supplies are better examples actually.

But, all that said:

or (more likely) it's not, and then it really shapes what the player will want to do. I'm just not crazy about those kinds of meta-incentives - you end up with some regardless of what you do, really, but I don't want to add major ones on purpose.

Yeah that's a pretty bad downside for the more likely scenario I'd say. There are probably better, more appropriate ways to achieve the above benefit outside of this particular feature.

I think you've converted me in this case.  :)
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captinjoehenry

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #412 on: October 02, 2019, 06:56:47 PM »

Will the new skills be adjustable via a settings file?  As I know I'm personally a massive fan of capital on capital action in the late game and I would really love to be able to edit the settings for the skills so that they function with a capital centric fleet because as you've said so far the default settings are more set up for a few capitals instead of a lot of them like I enjoy for the big epic fights you can get into.

It's not a text file tweak, but it can be done with a simple mod that changes some static variables (where those thresholds are specified).

You could also still get a bunch of capitals! You'd just get lower bonuses per ship, but, I mean, more capital ships is still more capital ships.
Well as long as it's simple to change it should be good.  Does mean I'll need to look into how to mod things more properly though :P 

it would be nice if it was just a setting in the config file but honestly as long as it's easy to change I can't complain too much!
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kenwth81

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #413 on: October 02, 2019, 10:50:39 PM »


Right, yeah - either it's universal (and then why not tie it into XP? not exactly the same, but close enough) or (more likely) it's not, and then it really shapes what the player will want to do. I'm just not crazy about those kinds of meta-incentives - you end up with some regardless of what you do, really, but I don't want to add major ones on purpose.

You are the king of negative incentive. All incentives shapes what the player will want to do. You are like that guy who like to give out speeding ticket to discourages people from breaking the speed limit. Negative incentive can be just as harmful, take care when nerfing things.
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #414 on: October 03, 2019, 08:48:23 AM »

Have to be honest, I'm pretty confused here because to my knowledge negative incentives haven't come up regarding this. Am I missing something?
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kenwth81

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #415 on: October 03, 2019, 11:56:28 AM »

Have to be honest, I'm pretty confused here because to my knowledge negative incentives haven't come up regarding this. Am I missing something?

Negative incentives are measures or mechanisms designed to discourage certain activities. Developers has the tendency to overbuff something, then overnerf something. A nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element; it influence what the player will want to do. It is demotivating. A nerf is a negative incentive.

In plain and simple English, I mean you like to nerf things.
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #416 on: October 03, 2019, 12:25:58 PM »

Apologies if I wasn't clear - what I mean is, I don't see how your comment related to what you were responding to.
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bobucles

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #417 on: October 03, 2019, 01:02:33 PM »

Don't feel bad about it. There is a very fancy science behind why people hate nerfs and will turn into foaming animals at the mere scent of one. The entire world will be changing with the skill overhaul anyway, so I don't think that saying buff or nerf at this time is really appropriate.

What is important is finding good fun gameplay elements, and pushing the limits on them as much as possible. It is great when a skill choice dramatically changes how someone plays, but the really hard part is making sure it isn't the only way to play. Don't forget that if everything is overpowered, nothing is.

Innominandum

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #418 on: October 03, 2019, 03:16:44 PM »

Don't feel bad about it. There is a very fancy science behind why people hate nerfs and will turn into foaming animals at the mere scent of one. The entire world will be changing with the skill overhaul anyway, so I don't think that saying buff or nerf at this time is really appropriate.
Yes, lets just wait and see how things will play out before we critic something that isn't there yet.

What is important is finding good fun gameplay elements, and pushing the limits on them as much as possible. It is great when a skill choice dramatically changes how someone plays, but the really hard part is making sure it isn't the only way to play.
Considering that this is an upcoming expansion of gameplay and this isn't dota I very much doubt that the upcoming versions META will be any less flexible. 
   
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 03:19:35 PM by Hastur »
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kenwth81

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #419 on: October 03, 2019, 09:38:49 PM »

Apologies if I wasn't clear - what I mean is, I don't see how your comment related to what you were responding to.

It is related to the discussion on adding meta-incentives. You mention you didn't add it on purpose, you often add those unconsciously. Thus the recurring need for the nerfs.
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