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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Skills and Story Points  (Read 91063 times)

Blackoth

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #195 on: July 26, 2019, 07:57:52 AM »

So as I started reading, I was getting really disappointed with the skill overhaul. I am never a fan of limiting choices and level caps. The current system is fantastic in my opinion. But if there is one thing ive learned over the years of following Alex and the development of Starsector, is that Alex is an amazing developer and always has something up his sleeve! WOW! Story points sound amazing and offset the changes to the current skill system. I really really like how they are a new system that can be used in unique ways.
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Arakasi

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #196 on: July 26, 2019, 12:13:30 PM »

One thing that worries me is that my character will feel more... perhaps not 'overpowered' but more like a 'protagonist' from outside the universe with these story points. One thing I really like about these sorts of games is feeling like I'm just a small fish in a big sea, not special or exceptional except in the choices I make. I understand it's meant to be sort of fourth-wall breaking in a way, making playthroughs more unique, but is there any way other fleets can/will gain some of these bonuses so that it doesn't seem quite so magical?

Edit: Also you made me so happy with the automated ships being usable by the player, it's like you read my mind :)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 12:17:02 PM by Arakasi »
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #197 on: July 26, 2019, 12:47:41 PM »

So as I started reading, I was getting really disappointed with the skill overhaul. I am never a fan of limiting choices and level caps. The current system is fantastic in my opinion. But if there is one thing ive learned over the years of following Alex and the development of Starsector, is that Alex is an amazing developer and always has something up his sleeve! WOW! Story points sound amazing and offset the changes to the current skill system. I really really like how they are a new system that can be used in unique ways.

Glad you're liking how it's shaping up - thank you!

One thing that worries me is that my character will feel more... perhaps not 'overpowered' but more like a 'protagonist' from outside the universe with these story points. One thing I really like about these sorts of games is feeling like I'm just a small fish in a big sea, not special or exceptional except in the choices I make. I understand it's meant to be sort of fourth-wall breaking in a way, making playthroughs more unique, but is there any way other fleets can/will gain some of these bonuses so that it doesn't seem quite so magical?

I know what you're saying, yeah. Story points are fundamentally... well, it's a thing you can use, and imagine whatever you like as the reasoning for things working out in-game the way that they did. So that can certainly feel more like you're a protagonist; but, I mean, you're at the very least the protagonist of your own story, so that doesn't necessarily conflict with feeling like a small fish. It's all up to how you think about it, and that *can* cut both ways.

And, yeah, there actually are some bonuses in a similar vein that other fleets get. One example is, you can hire mercenary officers - on temporary contracts - using story points; these let you exceed the maximum officer limit for a time. Higher-end NPC fleets make use of the same basic mechanic, also going above the officer cap. (This is instead of them becoming made up almost entirely of capital ships past a certain point, btw.)
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Arakasi

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #198 on: July 26, 2019, 01:00:58 PM »

And, yeah, there actually are some bonuses in a similar vein that other fleets get. One example is, you can hire mercenary officers - on temporary contracts - using story points; these let you exceed the maximum officer limit for a time. Higher-end NPC fleets make use of the same basic mechanic, also going above the officer cap. (This is instead of them becoming made up almost entirely of capital ships past a certain point, btw.)

What I would have to ask then - is there any plans to expand these bonuses along the line of the sorts of bonuses the players will be able to achieve with this new system? E.g. a bounty who has an automated ship, or a ship with a free hullmod.
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #199 on: July 26, 2019, 01:08:04 PM »

Maybe? I could see, say, putting a special ship with a few built-in hullmods. Actually, there's already - in the dev version - a very small chance to find some of these while exploring the Sector.

But my motivation for adding these kinds of things is primarily "because it's interesting", not "to give NPCs access to the same things as the player" or some such. The latter can be nice when it happens for helping "sell" some of these abilities - but it's not my reasoning for adding these kinds of things, if that makes sense. Sometimes it's a good fit for something to be found separate from the player, sometimes it's not.

So, basically, the answer to your question is that "some of those kinds of things will be in the game, but probably not for the reasons that you want them to" :D
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Arakasi

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #200 on: July 26, 2019, 01:17:58 PM »

[...] So, basically, the answer to your question is that "some of those kinds of things will be in the game, but probably not for the reasons that you want them to" :D

Sounds good to me - I do really like having unique things to find in the game, the derelict Fourteenth Battlegroup ships are some of my favourite things to find. My only concern now would be balance with some of these high tier skills/abilities, but I'm sure you'll work that out with tweaking of end-game fleets or some-such.
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Zhentar

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #201 on: July 30, 2019, 05:28:14 PM »

Now there's a thought - Spending a story point or two for leads on special entities could be rather compelling! I've never found the pop[ulation]sicles early enough to weigh into my colonization decisions at all; a way to seek them out specifically would let me play in a different way (...if they're even in a system with any planets worth inhabiting, of course...). Though the simple approach I can think of (pay story point, get constellation name) is both boring and trivially save-scummable, it would have to be something more involved than that.
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Sundog

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #202 on: July 30, 2019, 05:48:10 PM »

Finally got caught up with this thread, and now I have things to say. Generally, I think all the features in this blog post are great, but I have a few suggestions that I think would make them better. In order of how important I think they are:


Reloading after battle as a story point sink
I know that sounds crazy, but I think story points can be used to create an ideal middle-ground between iron mode and save-scum mode. Story points are the perfect price to pay in order to reload and revise history. They could be used to undo crippling defeats, but they're difficult enough to earn to disincentivize tedious reloading. As a fourth-wall-breaking method of influencing the game, it makes perfect sense that story points could be used to revise history.

This could be implemented in such a way that a story point is lost even if the game is shut down 'unexpectedly' by saving SP somewhere other than the save file, preemptively deducting one point whenever a battle starts (GUI would not show the deduction), and refunding the deduction once the game is saved. This way, one SP would be lost any time a player fights a battle they choose not to save on the first try. I'm not sure what the best way to handle cases where someone reloads without having any story points in the bank, but there are workable solutions, such as SP debt or removing progress toward the next SP.


Problems with permanent hullmods for SP
I love the idea, but in practice, I don't think it will work out much better than simply spending SP to increase a ship's OP. People are likely to choose the same hullmods whether they're permanent or not, with the caveat that low OP mods will be seen as inferior picks. In the end, the only difference between a ship with permanent hullmods and a ship with additional OP is that one is more flexible. But how meaningful is that flexibility? Why would someone want to remove the mods they think are most important for that ship?

The OP discrepancy problem could be solved by making perma mods grant 1x/2x/3x/5x bonus OP while still deducting their normal OP cost, but we'd still be left with the bigger problem of perma mods failing to make ships unique. No matter how I slice it, I can't think of a way that perma mods could be made interesting and different without modifying their efficacy. Elite hullmods with improved or supplementary effects could work, but people would still choose the same hullmods. A Dominator would just graduate from Heavy Armor to Elite Heavy Armor, which I don't think is that interesting. A more interesting approach, I think, is to make perma mods less effective versions of their temporary counterparts.


Retrofit hullmods - Permanent hullmods with normalized effects
The problems with permanent hullmods could be fixed by reducing and normalizing their effects in such a way that they're roughly balanced in spite of all having the same price (0 ordnance points and 1 story point). This would make choices about hullmods much more interesting, because the best mod for the ship is no longer the best choice for a perma mod. You don't want a Dominator to have retrofit heavy armor, because then it couldn't install the normal heavy armor hullmod, which grants a better bonus.


Interface for finding markets that are selling a specific ship
I imagine this could work well as a bar event as long as the selection of find-able ships is limited. Players could find some sort of broker or informant at bars who would offer to give the location of  a ship chosen from a list of x randomly selected rare ships. I think this could be a very good QoL feature. Scouring the sector in a frigate in search of ships I want has never part of the game I enjoy.


On the name of Story Points
The name is serviceable, and I cant think of any great alternatives, but I worry that new players will suspect that story points are a substitute for actual narrative, given how open-ended Starsector is.

Some potential alternatives: Influence, Narration, Fortune, Kismet.

If it were up to me, I'd call them "Machina Points", as in "deus ex machina" (a contrived solution to an obstacle in a narrative). Partly because that's exactly what they are, but more importantly because the meaning of "machina" is ambiguous and somewhat obscure. Normally I'm all for clarity, but story points have such a nebulous purpose that it's impossible to give them a name that clearly conveys what they are. I think this is one of those cases where you have to choose between giving a false impression or no impression at all. Other loosely defined words could work just as well.

Megas

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #203 on: July 31, 2019, 08:56:59 AM »

Quote
Reloading after battle as a story point sink
That means I cannot hoard points.  I just spend them immediately on builtin hullmods or other top picks then save scum without any points for the game to take away (unless it starts tracking negative points).

Quote
I love the idea, but in practice, I don't think it will work out much better than simply spending SP to increase a ship's OP.
This may be more useful.  Either way, the ship becomes a rare one that will be hard to replace, unless SP are easy to gain and stockpile.

One way to encourage SP use is to enforce a maximum limit that can be saved, much like extra lives in some early games (if you are too good, you do not get an extra life because you are already at the max).  If you do not use them, you lose them.

Being unable to stockpile too many SP means player can afford to lose his prized two-mod ship and replace it with another because he cannot save as much as SP as he wants.


If I had to pick another name for Story Points, I would call them Super Points because they are starting to feel like the Super Meter from fighting games.  Or maybe Action Points, like fighter's Action Surge from 5ed D&D.
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #204 on: July 31, 2019, 09:18:36 AM »

Reloading after battle as a story point sink
I know that sounds crazy, but I think story points can be used to create an ideal middle-ground between iron mode and save-scum mode. Story points are the perfect price to pay in order to reload and revise history. They could be used to undo crippling defeats, but they're difficult enough to earn to disincentivize tedious reloading. As a fourth-wall-breaking method of influencing the game, it makes perfect sense that story points could be used to revise history.

This could be implemented in such a way that a story point is lost even if the game is shut down 'unexpectedly' by saving SP somewhere other than the save file, preemptively deducting one point whenever a battle starts (GUI would not show the deduction), and refunding the deduction once the game is saved. This way, one SP would be lost any time a player fights a battle they choose not to save on the first try. I'm not sure what the best way to handle cases where someone reloads without having any story points in the bank, but there are workable solutions, such as SP debt or removing progress toward the next SP.

I've got half a mind to use up a story point when respawning - or perhaps to give an option for a better respawn at the cost of a story point - but, eh. It just gets weird since this sort of thing really encourages save-scumming and (as Megas points out) odd behavior as far as story point spending patterns.

Fundamentally, I don't like the idea of messing with what is and isn't in a savefile. That it contains the full gamestate is, to me, a fundamental expectation that shouldn't be broken. Consider cases where people, say, share savefiles. If the player wants to save/load, that's 100% up to them. I get what you're saying conceptually - it's an interesting thought! - but in practice I think it would lead to a lot of annoyance and bug reports.

Problems with permanent hullmods for SP
I love the idea, but in practice, I don't think it will work out much better than simply spending SP to increase a ship's OP. People are likely to choose the same hullmods whether they're permanent or not, with the caveat that low OP mods will be seen as inferior picks. In the end, the only difference between a ship with permanent hullmods and a ship with additional OP is that one is more flexible. But how meaningful is that flexibility? Why would someone want to remove the mods they think are most important for that ship?

Low-OP hullmods give more bonus experience, though, so they effectively cost fewer story points. (This came up as a suggestion further along in this thread, iirc Wyvern brought up the idea.)


Retrofit hullmods - Permanent hullmods with normalized effects
The problems with permanent hullmods could be fixed by reducing and normalizing their effects in such a way that they're roughly balanced in spite of all having the same price (0 ordnance points and 1 story point). This would make choices about hullmods much more interesting, because the best mod for the ship is no longer the best choice for a perma mod. You don't want a Dominator to have retrofit heavy armor, because then it couldn't install the normal heavy armor hullmod, which grants a better bonus.

(Interesting, but, right, having to have two sets of effects for each hullmod - and trying to balance them - doesn't feel viable for what we'd get out of this.)

Interface for finding markets that are selling a specific ship
I imagine this could work well as a bar event as long as the selection of find-able ships is limited. Players could find some sort of broker or informant at bars who would offer to give the location of  a ship chosen from a list of x randomly selected rare ships. I think this could be a very good QoL feature. Scouring the sector in a frigate in search of ships I want has never part of the game I enjoy.

Actually added a bar-event along these lines in the last couple of days :) Focused on blueprints etc, though, not specific ships.

Thinking of pairing this with a bar-event that gives you some access to manufacturing capacity, so you could build from blueprints - in a limited way - before getting your own heavy industry up. Need to see if I can make that work smoothly, though.
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Wyvern

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #205 on: July 31, 2019, 09:45:48 AM »

Thinking of pairing this with a bar-event that gives you some access to manufacturing capacity, so you could build from blueprints - in a limited way - before getting your own heavy industry up. Need to see if I can make that work smoothly, though.
Ooh, this would be very nice to have - I tend to play with Nexerelin enabled these days, just because it makes things overall more interesting - but Nexerelin causes slow faction relation degradation, so I often hold off on establishing a colony for quite a while.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

SCC

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #206 on: July 31, 2019, 09:53:57 AM »

Actually added a bar-event along these lines in the last couple of days :) Focused on blueprints etc, though, not specific ships.

Thinking of pairing this with a bar-event that gives you some access to manufacturing capacity, so you could build from blueprints - in a limited way - before getting your own heavy industry up. Need to see if I can make that work smoothly, though.
That's incredibly generous of you! Perhaps too much so. I would prefer some unlucky ships to be available only in limited quantities without raiding, but I know some people who just have to get everything in their game every time...

Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #207 on: July 31, 2019, 10:00:22 AM »

It's limited to a subset of otherwise-rare ships, and you don't have much choice in what's on offer.

(Also some weapons and other items...)
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SCC

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #208 on: July 31, 2019, 12:51:21 PM »

Problems with permanent hullmods for SP
I love the idea, but in practice, I don't think it will work out much better than simply spending SP to increase a ship's OP. People are likely to choose the same hullmods whether they're permanent or not, with the caveat that low OP mods will be seen as inferior picks. In the end, the only difference between a ship with permanent hullmods and a ship with additional OP is that one is more flexible. But how meaningful is that flexibility? Why would someone want to remove the mods they think are most important for that ship?
One different thing is that hullmods are ship-specific. Percentage increase to OP applies to all ships, but built-in hullmods apply only to the ship it's built in. Otherwise, it would make it closer to a flat OP increase per ship size, instead of percentage one. It's much better on low OP ships or when used on SO (though SO is the only hullmod that carries significant penalties and shoehorns a ship into a given role).

FooF

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #209 on: August 01, 2019, 07:11:31 AM »

It's limited to a subset of otherwise-rare ships, and you don't have much choice in what's on offer.

(Also some weapons and other items...)

I'm all for this. Ship manufacturing is rather binary as it is and there have been times where I have dozens of blueprints by the time I'm ready to get a colony going.

Without getting too far off topic, have you ever considered having limited blueprint production without a personal colony with Heavy Industry? You could do it a couple ways: faction commission grants limited blueprint production at faction worlds dependent on reputation and has an additional cost associated (relative to doing so yourself via your own colonies); basic colonies can manufacture frigates at base level and destroyers at size 4 (or some other relatively universal prerequisite) but still require Heavy Industry for larger ships (or tagged "complex blueprints" like a Hyperion frigate); or have pirates manufacture anything for you (at a price) though you know you're going to get heavily D-modded ships as an outcome.

I just think there needs to be more outlets to use early-acquired blueprints, especially if you go with an exploration start and find quite a few just by finding stations and such.
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