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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Skills and Story Points  (Read 91074 times)

intrinsic_parity

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2019, 09:08:40 PM »

What about spending a decent number of story points to modify a certain blueprint to have a built in hull mod? It seems like it will might not be worth spending story points on frigates/destroyers beyond maybe your early game flagships, so frigates/destroyers in a late game fleet might actually be a bit less viable. Making it so all frigates/destroyers of a certain type had that hull mod built in when manufactured at your colony would alleviate that problem. Maybe story point cost for the blueprint modification could scale by hull size. It would be like having your own lions guard or XIV ships.
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Thaago

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #91 on: July 08, 2019, 09:16:47 PM »

Re: Loadout Design.

It was mandatory because it was so good, but in general ships do not need an increase in OP. With the 10% there are few to no hard choices in ship design: just put in all the best things and call it a day (and for most ships, you can indeed fit the best of everything, enough flux, and the needed hullmods). Fewer OP lowers total power level, but increases the design space for ships because there are more viable tradeoffs. I think lowering the total power level is neutral - these things go up and down - but increasing the design space is very valuable.

Some ships are exceptions to this and need more OP, but I think those are special cases rather than general, and they could even be balanced in other ways if there are other reasons to keep OP the same. For the Shrike and Wolf for example, increasing the base flux stats would be a better choice than increasing OP, in my opinion.

Re: the blog post
Cool! Reminds me of the skill choices for XCOM soldiers, but it aims to avoid the pitfall of one skill being much superior to the other.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #92 on: July 08, 2019, 09:17:55 PM »

Yeah, it could work! I've got a TODO item for looking into something similar - where you might spend a story point to have someone find a hull or weapon for you. Well, "find", more like "spawn it somewhere halfway sensible and tell you about it".

The tricky part is actually the UI - how would "specify a ship or a weapon" look when there's 100+ to choose from, when you factor in mods? Half-thinking about it being some sort of "command line query" interface and the action being presented as doing some sort of hacking of logistics reports or some such. But having a fun UI for that sort of thing could be more work than it's worth.
We've already got that interface: the Custom Production screen. You could also limit the ships and weapons available to choose from based on the faction that you're hacking into. You're not going to divert a Paragon from the Hegemony when they don't even have one.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #93 on: July 08, 2019, 09:33:18 PM »

Re: Loadout Design.

It was mandatory because it was so good, but in general ships do not need an increase in OP. With the 10% there are few to no hard choices in ship design: just put in all the best things and call it a day (and for most ships, you can indeed fit the best of everything, enough flux, and the needed hullmods). Fewer OP lowers total power level, but increases the design space for ships because there are more viable tradeoffs. I think lowering the total power level is neutral - these things go up and down - but increasing the design space is very valuable.

Some ships are exceptions to this and need more OP, but I think those are special cases rather than general, and they could even be balanced in other ways if there are other reasons to keep OP the same. For the Shrike and Wolf for example, increasing the base flux stats would be a better choice than increasing OP, in my opinion.

Re: the blog post
Cool! Reminds me of the skill choices for XCOM soldiers, but it aims to avoid the pitfall of one skill being much superior to the other.

I disagree, I think it will reduce build variety. There are lots of weapon layouts that require a lot support from hull mods and vents/capacitors to be viable. Less OP means these loadouts will be worse so 'fun' loadouts that use the more eccentric guns will go away/ be less competitive with the more efficient loadouts. Most ships feel like they get enough to feel complete, but I can't think of any ship except maybe the paragon where I actually put everything I want on without concern. Most ships have to drop stuff that I want to fit other things that I want. Some ships (like the shrike) can barely fit the basics with +10% op. I very frequently leave mounts empty to get extra OP, or drop hull mods for extra vents, or downgrade weapons for an extra hullmod, which indicates to me that many ships are a bit tight on OP even with +10% op. I think ships on +10% OP felt like they were in a good place in general with some exceptions either way.
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Eji1700

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2019, 09:51:54 PM »

Re: Loadout Design.

It was mandatory because it was so good, but in general ships do not need an increase in OP. With the 10% there are few to no hard choices in ship design: just put in all the best things and call it a day (and for most ships, you can indeed fit the best of everything, enough flux, and the needed hullmods). Fewer OP lowers total power level, but increases the design space for ships because there are more viable tradeoffs. I think lowering the total power level is neutral - these things go up and down - but increasing the design space is very valuable.

Some ships are exceptions to this and need more OP, but I think those are special cases rather than general, and they could even be balanced in other ways if there are other reasons to keep OP the same. For the Shrike and Wolf for example, increasing the base flux stats would be a better choice than increasing OP, in my opinion.

Re: the blog post
Cool! Reminds me of the skill choices for XCOM soldiers, but it aims to avoid the pitfall of one skill being much superior to the other.

I disagree, I think it will reduce build variety. There are lots of weapon layouts that require a lot support from hull mods and vents/capacitors to be viable. Less OP means these loadouts will be worse so 'fun' loadouts that use the more eccentric guns will go away/ be less competitive with the more efficient loadouts. Most ships feel like they get enough to feel complete, but I can't think of any ship except maybe the paragon where I actually put everything I want on without concern. Most ships have to drop stuff that I want to fit other things that I want. Some ships (like the shrike) can barely fit the basics with +10% op. I very frequently leave mounts empty to get extra OP, or drop hull mods for extra vents, or downgrade weapons for an extra hullmod, which indicates to me that many ships are a bit tight on OP even with +10% op. I think ships on +10% OP felt like they were in a good place in general with some exceptions either way.

I mean, isn't this why you can now get two free hull mods?  That seems potentially WAY better than 10% OP.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2019, 09:59:24 PM »

I mean, isn't this why you can now get two free hull mods?  That seems potentially WAY better than 10% OP.

You have to spend story points for this though (that have a lot of other uses). I don't know exactly how the balance will work but my guess is that you will only get this on your flagship and maybe a your officers ships. The average ship in your fleet will likely not have this. Also two free hull mods is only marginally better than 10% op and limits you a lot more as well. It definitely hurts some ships more than others.
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namad

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2019, 10:39:06 PM »

I want to say that I think +100% top speed is a mistake for the phase ship skill. Top speed is NOT what a phase ship needs. Phase ships tend to not have enough maneuverability and/or acceleration. +100% top speed barely helps at all and in some cases might make the problem actually worse! The time dilation effect gives you plenty of speed.

So I'd suggest changing it from top speed to either maneuverability or acceleration, or even all three (but at much lower numbers say +33% to speed maneuverability and acceleration?

If you pilot a phase ship right now in the game, it's pretty easy to fly through an enemy ship to appear behind them. It's much harder to actually turn around and fire before they can turn around.
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Madao

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #97 on: July 08, 2019, 11:03:41 PM »

I can see you have been kicking this around for a long time Alex, it feels like the last piece of the puzzle just clicked into place for me. Essentially these story points fix most the currents weaknesses of Starsector and turn them into strengths and opportunities for player narrative instead. I think getting bonus points as a one off for doing cool things is a good idea too but overall I think you've nailed it in one. The bonus exp for certain choices keeps them from being hoarded, very simple and effective solution, and the fact that they are essentially infinite should keep the ball rolling well into end game. Maybe a small bonus too for having no story points left? I can't wait to see this in action.. Great work mate  :)
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #98 on: July 08, 2019, 11:15:13 PM »

I want to say that I think +100% top speed is a mistake for the phase ship skill. Top speed is NOT what a phase ship needs. Phase ships tend to not have enough maneuverability and/or acceleration. +100% top speed barely helps at all and in some cases might make the problem actually worse! The time dilation effect gives you plenty of speed.

So I'd suggest changing it from top speed to either maneuverability or acceleration, or even all three (but at much lower numbers say +33% to speed maneuverability and acceleration?

If you pilot a phase ship right now in the game, it's pretty easy to fly through an enemy ship to appear behind them. It's much harder to actually turn around and fire before they can turn around.
Just turn around while you're phasing through them.
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SCC

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #99 on: July 09, 2019, 12:03:35 AM »

How many skills are there like automated ships skill, that change the gameplay very tangibly and significantly, or at least offer something that you actually can't do without them? Or, perhaps, it's better to ask if all tier 5 skills are as crazy as that.
Edit: Re: Combat and Campaign skills: I don't think we will ever get a closure on it. Combat skills increase your fun directly, fleet-wide skills probably don't, but they are a safer or more optimal way to play.
Second edit: "Starfarer Points" sound the best so far.
Third edit: Another thing! Make story it possible to spend story points on small caches of resources, ships and weapons, to put new players who screwed up back on track. Early game is pretty unforgiving.

TaLaR

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2019, 12:29:10 AM »

Yeah, automated ships sounds powerful. Normal fleets are limited to 8-10 useful ships (by officers), rest fodder. Auto ships use cores as officer-equivalent to go (how far?) above this limit.
Plus from how it reads, automated ships are OP-scaled instead of constant like officers. Is it rebirth of frigate fleet? (or at least 8-10 bigger ships + auto frigates).
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 12:31:54 AM by TaLaR »
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R.U.A

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #101 on: July 09, 2019, 01:36:08 AM »

what the hell is "high scatter amplifier"?beam weapon could deal hard flux??
So what's the ratio?5%?10%?

It's 100% hard flux, but it also halves beam weapon range - as a multiplier! - so they stop being long-range weapons.
Really disagree with this. I can make a Tachyon Lance disaster with Advance Optics and the Amplifier, and just let other weapons go to hell to save OP for me.
Or to specify, Paragon + Tac-Lance + Adv-Optics + HSA = Let's strike all ships' face.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 01:41:34 AM by R.U.A »
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Baqar79

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #102 on: July 09, 2019, 02:28:50 AM »

Very much looking forward to further ship differentiation with the story-point based hull mods!

I'm being greedy here, but what about a faction hull-mod (eg Like the Hegemony) that you can install permanently into ship blueprints (Perhaps with a fairly high story-point based cost and limited to a small number of ship blueprints per game).

You could name this hull-mod after your Faction and on integrating it into a ship blue print it would provide small permanent bonuses to the base stats of the ship, much like the Fourteenth Battlegroup built in hull-mod does.  Of course that would make the 14th Battlegroup hull-mods a bit redundant, so perhaps a choice of several more focused hull-mods focusing on things eg Speed, Armoured, Shielded, Offence, Flux:

"KC Shipworks" (Speed) <- Player named hull-mod
+10% Top Speed
+10% Manuverability & Acceleration

"KC Shipworks" (Armoured)
+10% Armour
+10% Hull

"KC Shipworks" (Shielded):
-10% Damage taken by shields
-25% Shield Flux/sec

"KC Shipworks" (Offence):
+10% Damage dealt
+10% Weapon Range

"KC Shipworks" (Flux):
+10% Flux Capacity
+10% Flux Dissipation

Ignoring the randomly selected bonuses I've assigned to these hull-mods (a bit boring, likely overpowered and with a distinct lack of anything for Carriers), I think it would be neat to be able to create your own faction specific modified blue-prints.  In addition, I don't know how difficult it would be, but it would also be great to get basic colour change options for your ships (perhaps even be able to paint your faction flag on ships & blueprints).
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 02:40:18 AM by Baqar79 »
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #103 on: July 09, 2019, 04:21:43 AM »

What someone brought up has me concerned: the loss of the +op skill, the need to semi spend a resource, and the addition of perma hull mods makes me think that there will be less build diversity than there is now. Without the ability to remove these mods (maybe a space dock could for a fee of credits or starfarer points) it will encouage you to either A) add in stuff that is good on all ships like ITU or Effecency Overhaul. Or B) It will encouage you to add in the most expensive mod you can to get the most OP out of everything. Do I wait until I get a better mod or do I go ahead and just put RB and EO on this ship? I can see this being a pretty big newbie trap too

And speaking of space docks, can one be added to the abandoned terraforming platform in corvus? It doesn't have one and it really should.
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WastedAlmond

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #104 on: July 09, 2019, 04:30:16 AM »

This update seems promising. I like RPG stuff a lot, so this kinda content gets me excited. The story points seem like a really cool addition, but all the conversation about the name for the points gave me some ideas. Maybe something useful can be gotten out of them.

One thing that could be done to the "story points" to give them some fluffy flavor would be to tie the name into what kind of character you roll. For example a tritach start would begin you with a few of their smaller ships and a commission. This start could also rename story points to something flavorful for the faction, like uuhh... Executive points. For pirate players they'd be Rogue points. A tooltip should point out that these are special "story points", to avoid confusion.

Then again the name could be something more generic (yet fluffy) like "Connections" or "Favor points", because as the player accumulates experience and grows in power they'd also gain contacts and powerful people owing favors to them. People who could know a certain someone who could refit ships like nobody else in the sector. A gray market of connections if you like. The points could even at some point in the future, be introduced by the player meeting a powerful individual/administrator who needs a favor.

Or the points could be explained by something special in the player character themselves. Like a Domain era experimental quantum computing interface, that somehow ended up in the player's head. Which would be a good excuse for the player being able to pull off some weird stuff (as well as why they could grab them droneships, when nobody else seems capable of doing so). While remaining neutral enough that it would fit with whatever playthrough the player attempted. It could even have some plotpoints or storylines related to it. This could help the player feel special. The points could also be called something more scifi at this point! I'm terrible with names, so I'll just say "Quantum points" and shamefully leave it at that.

Thanks for all the hard work! 8)
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