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Author Topic: Travel, part II  (Read 2652 times)

xenoargh

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Travel, part II
« on: July 04, 2019, 01:56:10 AM »

So, I've just written a "warp drive" Ability that throws players across the Sector in no time flat. 

It took a little doing.  SectorEntityToken setContainingLocation() doesn't actually appear to function correctly in the sense of, if I give it a new LocationAPI, the fleet isn't teleported there, at least when applied to player fleets) etc.  It also took a while to unravel how to feed it the correct parameters for tooltips and all that.

But hey, it works now.  Uses Fuel and everything.  If anybody's interested in that, let me know; you'll need to start a new game and change a line in abilities.csv as well as compiling the code, so it's a little non-trivial to add in, but it's interesting.

Anyhow, my initial reaction was gosh, it's nice to not have to travel through Hyperspace for the long hauls.  Not in terms of "oh, hey, a working cheat", but more "oh, hey, a mechanic that improves my Fun".

It's not as nice, polished or bug-free (lol) as Fast Travel in a Bethesda title, but it's doing something similar, in that it removes the sheer tedium of walking from A to B.

Hyperspace travel's a lot like the early economies.  It's surface-functional, but it's not doing what it should be doing, which is adding Fun.  Internal travel within Systems is inherently pretty Fun; I like traveling around, looking for things after I've killed a Bounty or wrecked a Station.  It feels eminently polished, and it should; for waaaaay too long, it was all we had, and the sheer amount of playtesting shows.

I've raised the effective speed of Burn a bit, and that made it even more fun; waiting for your fleet to arrive at a planet is a little dull after a while, but a little speedup made a big difference, at least for me; saving a few minutes of tedium to get to the parts that are neat (What's in that floating box?  Who's hiding out here?) is fun, and rarely feels like a grind to get <stuff>, at least in my current game.

But Hyperspace travel is pretty dull. 

At best, it's time spent watching a fleet move; at worst, it's watching the fleet do crazy pinball antics because you got unlucky with Storms.  The minute I tried pushing up Burn speed was when I actually had some vague urge to actually play beyond feature-testing and bug-hunting again.

So... thoughts on how to fix:

1.  Travel from star to star needs to either be a lot faster, or have a lot more in the way of meaningful choices happening. 

In the Core Systems, at least in early-game Vanilla, I'd imagine things look vaguely scary, at least until you build a fleet of Drovers.  I get that it's probably still feeling all right, and any harder and newbies will just run away screaming.  That's fine, but that's not where the problems are.  Outside the Core Systems, instead of feeling riskier... things feel much safer. 

Seriously, unless I accidentally land on a Pirate / Pather base, there's nothing out there that's going to kill me, other than totally-avoidable [REDACTED] infestations.  There's nothing flying around in Hyperspace that's dangerous; at worst, maybe I'll run into some Scavenger that wants to fight.  Usually, that doesn't end well for them.

This seems like the inverse of how things should feel.  In most games like this, the risk / reward of pushing outside the Newbie Zone is clear; you take more risks (and may meet things you just cannot defeat at all) but you get bigger rewards.  Here, the "risk" is that I'll run out of Fuel or Supplies; I rarely encounter existential threats or battles I need to save-scum.

The rewards are also a bit goofy.  Hull Mods that I cannot get any other way other than taking Commissions are very big, although the impact's pretty muted in Vanilla, where we simply can't mount that many, so it's mainly a matter of finding that one thing you need (but most of those One Things are in the Skill tree unlocks, so it's cool).  So it's largely about getting Blueprints and rare weapons / ships.  There aren't many of those, in a long game where we're doing a lot of Bounty-clearing, except for the goofy stuff like Auroras where they aren't showing up much in Deserter fleets.  The real prize is farming [REDACTED], of course, but it takes time to work up to it. 

Meanwhile, exploration for anything other than Class V worlds is pretty pointless past the midgame; if you're playing well, you should have most of the Hull Mods by then and weapons and money a-plenty.  I really think there should be dragons out there, waiting on hoards worth the fight.

So, mainly... I end up just wanting things to go faster.  Especially once we hit "interstellar whack-a-mole" time, where taking out Pirate bases becomes increasingly important.

2.  I'm not in favor of a system of "hyperspace lanes" to get this done unless it's in the context of late-game empire management.  In early and midgame, what's really needed is real speedups that affect time spent waiting for the next choice to come up.  Sure, in early game, it can be tense, hoping you don't hit <something you can't fight>, but frankly, that's a savescum re-roll; it's annoying RNG, not an opportunity to tell a good story.

Freelancer handled this fairly well; they had lanes that offered the best travel times, but they were inherently risky, because you could get jumped at any moment.  This somewhat mitigated the boring of Travel.

It got a bit silly in late-game play, when your ship massively out-classed the low-threat enemies in the safer systems; unfortunately, this area was hard-coded and the lanes couldn't scale their threat to the player's power.  Something like that, where it's a bit of a dice-roll, might be satisfying.

3.  I feel Hyperspace is far too empty.  It doesn't have meaningful places; other than the occasional random floating wreck, there's nothing to see.  Honestly, I think that's the biggest thing; when you've seen one bunch of auto-generated clouds, you've seen 'em all.  There just isn't that feeling of "over there, we'll run into something Totally Else". 

The proc-gen Systems are actually varied enough, both contextually and visually, that I rarely feel this way; other than a few too many one-sun, one-planet Systems, they're fine, in the sense of feeling like places.  But Hyperspace doesn't.

How to fix? 

Maybe Hyperspace is littered with wormholes that take us somewhere wonderful and weird.  Maybe we'll occasionally encounter lost objects from the Domain that teach us some of the lore and embed us into the experience more.  Maybe there should be Pirate bases there, so that there are sometimes parts where you can expect regular patrols and serious danger.  Or ghost battlefields of wrecked mysterious vessels that clearly predate the arrival of the Domain.  There should be dragons, hanging around in the mysterious edges of the map, waiting for the unwary.  I think that's the biggest issue; after driving out to the edges a few times, I kept expecting... something dangerous, interesting or inherently weird.  Something to make pushing outwards feel worthwhile, vs. optimaxing my Colonies and quitting when I was pointlessly rich. 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 01:58:27 AM by xenoargh »
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Schwartz

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2019, 03:08:34 AM »

Special wreckages of stations or whatever in 'eye of the storm' type hyperspace clouds would be neat. I'm not sure about warping. Console Commands has the ability and it is a cheat and feels like one. There was previous discussion about defunct gates being restored to at least get from one place to the other. This could play out in various ways. I think in lore these are supposed to all connect to various exits?

I don't find hyperspace travel too dull. There's plenty of navigating to do, and wreckages further out seem to have a propensity to give the player goodies like officers. What I do find lacking is that travel takes such a long time in-game. Days and time in general could pass a little more slowly, especially with how much there is to do these days, and how heavily player time is taxed.

Yes, the fringe worlds could use some more interactions. Hunter fleets, science fleets including a localized quest or two, stray remnants out in hyperspace..
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Megas

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2019, 05:12:03 AM »

I find inner system travel in some systems worse than hyperspace because my fleet cannot reach burn 30, and the only way to speed things up when I want to leave is Transverse Jump.  I had a few pirate bases that repeatedly spawn in huge systems that would take a long time to find without reloading.  Even if I knew where it was, it could take in-game weeks to travel to and back.  So far, I was lucky enough not to have a good colony system that required two in-game weeks to travel from jump-point to colony, and another two weeks to leave.

As for hullmods, I get most of those that I cannot be from Open Market from raiding if I start early enough.

If I want to avoid cores, then the only reason to farm Remnants is Sparks for Drovers.  That said, Pather bug has made core use completely safe (and colony skills on your character worthless).

Not all class V planets are ideal, especially when much of the value comes from ruins, which are nowhere near as good as they were in 0.9a.  (I think the game overvalues ruins.)  When looking for sufficient resources, class V planet with five -1 resources, vast ruins, and over 100% hazard is not as useful as gas giant or other rock with one or two +1 or +2 resources (enough to satisfy demand).  Some of the good low hazard planets are only class IV or even III because all they have are good location, low hazard, and good enough farmland.

If there is a warp drive in the game, consider that enemies should have it too, and time to respond to expeditions would be shorter.  Also, if everyone had warp drive, then there should be no traffic in hyperspace at all.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2019, 06:52:28 AM »

In Skyrim, I prefer to run/sprint/whirlwind shout everywhere. To me, the fast-traveling just feels like "I am now there," rather than traveling or even teleporting. I think it's more a matter of feel than time spent. Specifically, a snappy, things-are-happening feel.

I use a camera bouncing mod on Skyrim, so I get a bit of snap on every step, then more when sprinting, and a lot when shouting. The dramatic views help, too. Starsector, on the other hand, feels like it's been avoiding snappy motions like the plague. Look at Emergency Burn, hyperspace jumps, even the Hyperion's teleport - EB is the closest to being snappy.

Movement in Starsector just isn't satisfying.
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Megas

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2019, 08:12:47 AM »

Quote
So, mainly... I end up just wanting things to go faster.  Especially once we hit "interstellar whack-a-mole" time, where taking out Pirate bases becomes increasingly important.
What bothers me more is not so much travel time (at least in hyperspace), but the urgent need to stop pirates at nearly all times, plus whatever colony threats that your colony defenses may not be able to handle.  It is hard to explore or do other fun activities when enemies are constantly attacking something and player intervention is required to save them.

Between midgame and endgame, I am juggling between saving worlds and hunting bounties for income.  It is hard to explore for long without some alert that needs to be dealt with now or else bad things happen if ignored, especially if I do not have Navigation 3.

The sector should not be so unstable without player intervention.  I find it hard to accept lore like AI wars when pirates can raid successfully time after time and decivilize some worlds.  It makes pirates appear to be the true hegemony and the so-called major factions just minor enclaves waiting to get fleeced.

Also, player should not be the only one able to deal with sector threats.  At the very least, player should be able to delegate NPC fleets to deal with colony threats the player cannot be bothered to deal with due to seven other things that are on fire.
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Dexy

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2019, 09:42:14 AM »

My thoughts on travel:

Finding out that there is a toggle for the accelerate time button was nice.

Hyperspace travel is boring and there are often too many hyperspace storms. Circling around a few is OK, but sometimes they are just a huge cloud that stretches over vast portions of the map. These are a fun killer.

I have concluded that I don't like the burn drive much. It is effectively the default mode of travel except for a few particular situations, such as when combat is imminent. It is not something to activate when I have long distance travel in mind as there is almost no distance where it's not worth turning it on. It also violates physics and turning it off acts like a brake that magically decelerates me faster than I could accelerate. Turning it off lets me make tight turns, after which I usually turn it on again (useful for going around hyperspace storms). Basically I keep it on almost all the time but also quickly switch between on/off/on for maneuvering. That the sensor burst turns the burn drive off is really annoying. I know there is a skill for that but for the sake of ergonomics this shouldn't be required. The sheer amount I turn the burn drive on/off/on/off is mind boggling.

Trying to be more constructive here:

Basically I think we do need some proper travel drive that lets us reach higher speeds but is less effective at escaping from danger and isn't something that we're encouraged by the game to constantly turn on and off.

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outdated

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2019, 10:09:02 AM »

I have never even considered avoiding storms. There's no real downside to passing right through, unless you're really low on supplies.
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Megas

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2019, 04:32:47 PM »

I have never even considered avoiding storms. There's no real downside to passing right through, unless you're really low on supplies.
While I have avoided storms occasionally, more often than not, I deliberately drive toward storms and burn through them.  Burn 30 is great.  If anything, slogging through clouds at burn 10 or less while they are dark is worse.
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xenoargh

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2019, 09:07:10 PM »

A couple of things:

1.  If you're of the, "I liked to walk everywhere in Skyrim" variety of player, it's cool; I can't stand having to walk repeatedly through areas, but that's just me.  However, one of the things Fast Travel does, which my code cannot do thus far, is to make world-time pass while traveling.  If I could figure that out, I'd probably add that in, so that this doesn't feel like a cheat at all, just a way to save some drudgery.

As it is, I've written it to cost 125% of normal Fuel use; you get your time on this planet back, but at a cost.  I'll evaluate that balance as I test it out more; right now, that feels about right.  I certainly think that this is more of a band-aid solution than a properly-polished feature; I just couldn't stand the long hauls through Hyperspace any more, lol.

2.  I'd be a lot more interested in "walking around" if Hyperspace felt like Systems do.  There, I want Burn to be a bit faster, but that's been my only real tweak thus far; just making it take a little less time to explore a System was enough to make it work for me.  Granted, I'm hardly a newbie player, so I'm probably not the ideal judge of this stuff; I'm guessing that the average newbie also wants events fed to them a little faster, though, too; they're coming from things like FTL, where it's all about reacting to events.

Quote
The sheer amount I turn the burn drive on/off/on/off is mind boggling.
Yeah, this.  Honestly, I think that Alex's new slow-down-via-key feature looks like it might get rid of a lot of that annoyance; we'll see.  Honestly, I think that maybe with that feature in place, maybe we could just have a Burn throttle, where setting it to Emergency Power uses up CR or something, and then get rid of the Abilities that effect movement speeds entirely.  I think this would be a nice simplification of the game design.  I'll definitely consider what you've said about the annoyance of turning on abilities that shut down Burn; maybe there's a better way.  But I think Alex is definitely onto something with the feature he's working on :)

Quote
What bothers me more is not so much travel time (at least in hyperspace), but the urgent need to stop pirates at nearly all times, plus whatever colony threats that your colony defenses may not be able to handle.  It is hard to explore or do other fun activities when enemies are constantly attacking something and player intervention is required to save them.
I agree; I'm hopeful that as things go forward, this all starts to get a little more sane.  A lot of it's just minor tweaks here and there, though; the mechanics of, "how often do Raids happen and how strong are they" are very straightforward.
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TrashMan

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2019, 04:10:27 AM »

Seriously, unless I accidentally land on a Pirate / Pather base, there's nothing out there that's going to kill me, other than totally-avoidable [REDACTED] infestations.  There's nothing flying around in Hyperspace that's dangerous; at worst, maybe I'll run into some Scavenger that wants to fight.  Usually, that doesn't end well for them.

That's generally the endgame problem of player death fleets. Any game where the player becomes too powerful faces the same problem.
Early game most fleet you run into could wreck you.
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TrashMan

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2019, 04:16:55 AM »

I don't find hyperspace travel too dull. There's plenty of navigating to do, and wreckages further out seem to have a propensity to give the player goodies like officers. What I do find lacking is that travel takes such a long time in-game. Days and time in general could pass a little more slowly, especially with how much there is to do these days, and how heavily player time is taxed.

That's in complete opposition to the empire/colony managment that only makes sense on big timescales.
Long travel times help make the galaxy feel big and credible.

If it takes 2 days to get to the other side of the sector, how is anything left unexplored? What are people doing? Many sci-fi setting fall into a trap of making their FTL travel too fast to make any sense. Take Star Wars, where you for thousands of years had jumpdrives fast enough to get you from end of the galaxy to another in days, and millions upon millions spaceships - yet you still have unexplored/unknown regions.
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xenoargh

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2019, 08:47:19 AM »

On the Star Wars thing... it's actually not a silly as it sounds.  Galaxies are... big.  Ours has ~250 billion solar systems.

So, if we had million spacecraft with instant FTL right now (let alone the Star Wars Dramatically Appropriate Time FTL), and they took a mere week each to survey every solar system, without ever taking a break... the time to survey the entire the Milky Way... would be nearly 4,800 years.

Anyhow, I don't care if it takes game-time to travel.  I care a lot if it's taking significant real-world time to travel.  One of those is a balance issue, the other is a game-design issue.

If I had a way to move game-time forward, I'd go ahead and do that; as it is, I'm not sure what Alex invokes to do the accelerated game-time at the beginning of the game yet; when I figure that out, I'll probably include it.  Then it's irrelevant how long it takes, in game-time, to travel; we could have travel-times be weeks, if we wanted.
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Wyvern

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2019, 09:54:55 AM »

Personally, I think that Sustained Burn and Interdiction Pulse are not good for the game, and I would love to be rid of them.  SB was introduced explicitly to deal with the "it takes too long to get anywhere in hyperspace" thing (and IP explicitly to deal with SB!), and there have to be better options for dealing with that that don't cause problems at the fleet maneuvering scale.

Like, what I'd have expected would be a "nav skip" button - something that brings up a dialog with a progress bar, goes through whatever calculations it needs to account for the passage of game time, and then has a chance to spit you back out partway there with a hostile sensor signature approaching, or an anomaly you can investigate (or run away from) or etc.

As it is, hyperspace travel is the worst kind of tedious: you can't let the fleet go on autopilot because storms will mess up your CR and/or flight path, but dodging them isn't interesting, it's just busywork.
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Megas

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2019, 10:29:48 AM »

Anyhow, I don't care if it takes game-time to travel.  I care a lot if it's taking significant real-world time to travel.  One of those is a balance issue, the other is a game-design issue.
That is a reason why I dislike traveling inside huge systems (on par with Penelope's Star), especially if I need to search for a hidden enemy base.  I probably would have been even more annoyed if I had a game where the best colony system was some huge monstrosity that would take in-game weeks to go in-and-out without T. Jump.

I dislike Interdiction Pulse.  How come they can spam it without consequence, but I cannot without taking rep penalties, even in a system my faction controls?
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xenoargh

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Re: Travel, part II
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2019, 10:46:15 AM »

Quote
Like, what I'd have expected would be a "nav skip" button - something that brings up a dialog with a progress bar, goes through whatever calculations it needs to account for the passage of game time, and then has a chance to spit you back out partway there with a hostile sensor signature approaching, or an anomaly you can investigate (or run away from) or etc.
Yeah, that's more-or-less what I wanted to write here; it's not quite there (among other problems I haven't solved for, finding fleets vaguely on the path and halting if the player's path intersects them isn't done).

Quote
As it is, hyperspace travel is the worst kind of tedious: you can't let the fleet go on autopilot because storms will mess up your CR and/or flight path, but dodging them isn't interesting, it's just busywork.
Yeah, and time-wasting busywork, to boot.

So, yeah... one idea I had was that maybe we'd have a "hyper-drive" system where we'd set a location, halt a little while, and then travel ultra-fast to the destination.  For other fleets, we'd get to see their path for a little bit, giving the player an option to use Interdiction Pulse to halt them. 

Enemy fleets would get a similar ability; if the player-fleet's Hyperdrive path intersects or is close enough, they could use a Pulse to halt them; if the player fleet's going from one location in System A to System B, then have an automated intercept system where there's a good chance that if anything big, nasty and hostile is on those three paths, you'll get stopped by a Pulse, the enemy would be within Pulse distances, and you'd have to make decisions really fast, if you want to avoid combat. 

This would get rid of the boring parts of Travel entirely but add risk; players would have the choice to do boring travel, but be able to see all incoming fleets as they went, or do fast travel, saving time but taking a risk that they'll get intercepted by something they can't handle. 

The only real problem with this is that if the fleets in Hyperspace are still really simulated, the player can just save-scum and wait a little bit instead of using their hyper-drive; probably the best way to avoid that is to simply give enemy fleets a large radius to intercept, so that there's no way you're going straight through some Pirate-infested zone using your hyper-drive without encountering somebody.  I may take a look at adding this to my system; I really don't like how there are so few encounters that I can't dodge (other than [REDACTED] swarms; I've given them higher-than-average Burn so players can't side-step them).
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