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Author Topic: Railgun vs. Light Needler  (Read 7949 times)

Schwartz

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2019, 09:35:38 PM »

With how good Railgun is, Light Needler is now a sidegrade that costs more.

As was said.. single-shot damage has its use but wind-up is bad. On the other hand, so is prolonged burst and low damage per projectile. I tried using Needler once but went back to Railgun almost immediately.
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xenoargh

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2019, 12:28:01 AM »

Quote
It seems like it makes more sense to say the weapon has a shorter effective range, not that it is actually worse at shooting things/doing damage. That seems like a bad analysis of the effect of inaccuracy since the range can be controlled by the pilot to improve the effectiveness of the weapon.
It's kind of six of one and half-a-dozen of the other, honestly; either way, we're measuring the same thing: how effective is the weapon at a given range

Using the maximum range as the benchmark is appropriate; if a given weapon can't hit the broadside of a barn, then, all other things being equal (i.e., two identical ships, neither has an advantage otherwise), the ship with a weapon that hits more often and delivers more DPS at kiting range always wins.  This is true whether it's player-piloted or not, or it would be, if the game didn't allow us to do corner-cheese to pin enemies.

It's a direct tradeoff there, essentially.  Lack of accuracy is lack of efficiency.  Hence why it works the way it does and why I tilted those stats where I did when looking at the critique offered up of the current weapon designs.  Anyhow, let me know if it's OP or UP; I think what I've got largely works, but I'm open to the possibility that I've missed an edge-case or three.  I don't think these changes will make the Light Needler ridiculous or the Railgun too weak; I think they'll push them into their intended design niches.  But hey, let me know if that's wrong.
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Megas

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2019, 05:57:28 AM »

The biggest consideration is OP cost.  Light Needler is too expensive to merely emulate a variant-styled Railgun.  Light Needler had a point when it had 800 range.  Now, it is two less OP per needler for vents or critical hullmods.  For example, with Medusa, I can barely squeeze everything else I need with Railguns.  With Light Needlers, I cannot - something gets sacrificed to squeeze those Needlers in.  Similar case with Hammerhead.

Related, because Railgun costs 7 OP and Arbalest costs 8, it is a reason to pick Railgun over Arbalest on a medium ballistic mount.  (I may take Arbalest over Railgun anyway due to less flux load.)  Light Needler is one over Arbalest for similar on-paper stats, and I will probably take Arbalest over Light Needler just for taking one less OP to mount.

As for accuracy, it does not matter as much against shields, but it matters when used against missiles or hull.  However Railgun's high damage per shot dents frigate armor well enough.  Armor penetration is nice for ships like Onslaught that cannot mount too many guns at the rear.  Combined with perfect accuracy, railgun spam can wreck weak frigates.

Light Needler is terrible for IPDAI use.  Railgun is good enough for that purpose, theoretically.  (Most ships do not have the flux stats to comfortably use IPDAI Railguns plus main guns at the same time.)
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Thaago

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2019, 12:21:25 PM »

Honestly railgun is so good that I would still take it at 8OP, making the choice between it and arbalest less clear (I don't really like that putting in a small gun in a medium mount isn't just 'undergunning', but is actually a better choice).

LAC 4OP (with new accuracy change), LDAC 5OP, Light Needler 7OP, Railgun 8OP, seems about right.
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xenoargh

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2019, 03:04:52 PM »

OK, let's try out a 7-OP Needler.  This should be interesting; I generally play these games while keeping OPs stable.

Here's a go at this.

The basic idea here being that the Light Needler should be a definite "sidegrade" to the Railgun, rather than feeling over-priced for the job. 

So in this model, the Light Needler is inherently inaccurate, rather than scalar-inaccurate, among other things; it hits the target 57% of time.  But that means it's still delivering roughly 855 Hard Flux for 600 Soft Flux, on average; not super-great, but it'll be a shield-killer up close or against anything that's bigger and slower.  When it's delivering 1500 Hard Flux for 600 Soft Flux, it's very dangerous indeed, in its intended role.

Addressing the other points, I've included the HAC and Arbalest to compare / contrast with the Railgun.

They each get sharply different roles; HAC gets range and hits hardest when it hits; Arbalest is the most efficient and hits Armor fairly hard; Railgun doesn't miss much, but is kind of meh otherwise.

[EDIT]Updated URL to point to the specific spreadsheet.[/EDIT]
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 03:08:51 PM by xenoargh »
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2019, 09:09:34 AM »

The Light Needler's inaccuracy due to recoil is fixed by Gunnery Implants and/or hardpoints. It's best used on ships that can combine it with other sources of massive burst damage so you can't just armor tank it, such as an Autopulse Sunder or Phase Lance Medusa, or on phase ships that can speed up the cooldown with phase time and effectively triple/quadruple its DPS, which is not possible with the Railgun. It cannot be better than the Railgun for generalist use; if it was, it would effectively be a medium weapon in a small slot, as the Railgun is already better than the Arbalest in most aspects. Like the Antimatter Blaster, it's a 9 OP high burst niche weapon.
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Megas

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2019, 10:18:49 AM »

Cannot rely on Gunnery Implants for ships without officers.  Hardpoints do not fix inaccuracy, at least not if hovering at maximum shot range.

At 9 OP, Light Needler had better be better than Railgun for generalist use.  It did when it had 800 range.  Now at 700 and its current stats, it is merely an inferior Railgun clone even with the burst (which is not bursty enough to begin with).  If Light Needler keeps 700 range and 9 OP, it needs more.  Light Needler deserved its 9 OP cost when it had 800 range, which it kept until 0.9a.  I see current Light Needler worth no more than 8 OP, but only because of Arbalest.  Even then, 7 OP is not out-of-line.  (Light Needler was an elite weapon, while Arbalest is cheap.)  Railgun does everything important Light Needler can do for 2 less OP per gun, and that cheaper OP cost often means the difference between getting everything else or not.

P.S.  I tried two Phase Lance Medusas, one with railguns and the other with light needlers, and the railgun Medusa did better than light needler Medusa, mostly because of 4 more OP for better flux stats, and less flux spiking when attacking.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 10:24:45 AM by Megas »
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2019, 12:03:28 PM »

That's like saying the Antimatter Blaster should be better than the IR pulse laser for generalist use just because it costs more OP to mount. It's a specialist weapon with a specialist use case; if it's not useful for general use by non-officered ships, I think that's fine.

No, the Railgun can't do everything the Light Needler can do. I literally just listed something the Light Needler can do that the Railgun can't: Phase ships can speed up its cooldown with phase time and effectively triple/quadruple its DPS, which is not possible with the Railgun.

The LN/Phase Lance Medusa is entirely about flux spiking when attacking and having very short active engagement times. You jump on something, throw your combined LN and Phase Lance burst at it, then skim away to vent. You need more capacity than usual to absorb the self-flux spikes, but the flux spikes are the whole point of the build.
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xenoargh

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2019, 02:14:31 PM »

In the example I've provided, the use-case for the Light Needler (i.e., burst-alpha anti-Shield, better up close, like your Medusa example, but not so hot at longer ranges) is exactly the same as it was.  It's just a little more effective.  Not a lot.

The Rail Gun's been nerfed a teeny tiny bit (basically, 2 more Flux per shot), but it's essentially the same gun.  I didn't need to do much to either to put them into par-balance this time, either in the 9-OP or 7-OP case studies.

Anyhow, just test them and see for yourself that I haven't done anything weird; I can assure you that you'll hardly notice the difference in performance, especially with the 7-OP version.
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Megas

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2019, 03:22:37 PM »

AM Blaster is no good for generalist use.  (It was in earlier releases when AI was dumber, though.)  It is a missile weapon disguised as an energy weapon.  Light Needler, not so much.  It is still mostly a general-purpose assault weapon.  It bursts, but it does not do a good enough job except maybe against frigates.  Heavy Needler is a good burst weapon against destroyers and maybe some cruisers.  It is also more damaging, faster turning, accurate, and efficient than its competitor, Heavy Autocannon.  Light Needler's competitor, Railgun, is simply too good.  Light Needler is not significantly more efficient, and the lackluster burst does not make up for lost DPS AND higher OP cost.

True, you (ANGRY) mentioned phase ships, but are there any great loadouts involving needlers, or non-PD ballistics of any kind for that matter, for them?  I can see Doom wanting needlers.  (I probably use light autocannons if I want kinetics on Doom.  Usually, I use light mortars or no ballistics at all, depending if Doom has Hardened Subsystems or not.)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 03:39:00 PM by Megas »
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Goumindong

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2019, 04:56:46 PM »

While the heavy needler is a bit better positioned in terms of range its a lot worse positioned in terms of OP (and the all important armor damage!) compared to the arbalest which is almost directly analagous to the railgun; you can fit two arbalests for 16 OP and fire 300 DPS for 240 flux out of 2 arbalests with 150 pen.

I just dont buy that the light needler is particularly underpowered just because its not the go to kinetic to fit on every ship

Why would you use light mortars on a doom? The front universals are fixed and you have medium energy slots for armor pen. You also have flux to spare(i usually run an ion beam and a heavy blaster and LN would compliment that really well) so its not like youre terribly worried about building it up.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 05:03:10 PM by Goumindong »
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2019, 05:10:24 PM »

The Doom likes Light Needlers because the AI is really really scared of mines, and will always turn its shield to face the mines if possible. So you plop a mine in front of the enemy to get it to put shields up, then give it the 4x750 KE burst. Phase to cool down and repeat as necessary until overload. Afflictors and Shades have a harder time forcing the enemy to turn shields on, but can make threatening disabler ships with Ion Cannons and Light Needlers. It's more of an AI loadout than a player loadout, though.
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Megas

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2019, 06:08:05 PM »

@ Goumindong:  Mortars are cheap, low flux use, and pile on a little more damage to unshielded stuff after Heavy Blasters, Salamanders, and Mines do bad things.  I only use Light Mortars if Doom does not have Hardened Subsystems.  If I squeeze Hardened Subsystems in, then the universals are empty (or the medium missiles are empty and universals have single Salamanders).  Doom (as I configure it) relies solely on Heavy Blasters and (primarily) mines to kill stuff, plus occasional Salamander to distract AI a bit.  Mortars are set to alternating.  I stay far away from enemies (well beyond 700 range) until the enemy cannot fight back.  At that point, it does not matter too much what small guns, if any, are used.

However, if I am poor and do not have elite weapons, just common junk, then I use Pulse Lasers in mediums and Light Autocannons (or more Salamanders) in the universals.

Quote
I just dont buy that the light needler is particularly underpowered just because its not the go to kinetic to fit on every ship
Light Needler is not really underpowered, just overpriced and almost totally overshadowed by Railgun due to doing much of the same job for 2 less OP.  Even with I try to use Light Needler for burst shenanigans, it is not working miracles that puts "simply pounding away with Railguns until enemy is vulnerable then burst with other weapons to finish the job" to shame.

Quote
While the heavy needler is a bit better positioned in terms of range its a lot worse positioned in terms of OP (and the all important armor damage!) compared to the arbalest which is almost directly analagous to the railgun; you can fit two arbalests for 16 OP and fire 300 DPS for 240 flux out of 2 arbalests with 150 pen.
I meant to compare Heavy Needler to Heavy Autocannon, since both have 800 range and close DPS and flux use.  Sometimes, I take two Heavy Needlers over three Heavy Autocannons on Eagle.  Heavy Needler would a complete upgrade over Heavy Autocannon if OP cost was not a factor.

For Light Needler and Railgun, Light Needler only has slightly better flux efficiency and possible burst action as advantages over Railgun.  In other words, Light Needler is a sidegrade to Railgun (if their OP costs match), not upgrade like Heavy Needler over Heavy Autocannon.  I do not think burst action is worth 2 OP and some worse stats over Railgun.  If I am undergunning a medium mount, I will probably take Arbalest over Light Needler, but maybe not over Railgun.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 06:22:53 PM by Megas »
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Thaago

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2019, 07:30:31 PM »

I think the Heavy Needler has a good niche going for itself with superior DPS and efficiency in a single slot. Its my go-to weapon for the unviersals on a Paragon (where its burst also works amazing with Fortress shield). I haven't really experimented with Heavy Needlers on an Eagle... 2 + a Heavy Mortar would be quite potent, though I'd need to drop something to make the OP work.

While 2 Arbalests might be better on paper, they are shorter ranged, inaccurate, and have a slow slot speed. But more importantly... 2 medium ballistic slots is a very, very high price to pay instead of just 1. Only the Enforcer has such an excess of medium mounts?
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Megas

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Re: Railgun vs. Light Needler
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2019, 05:11:25 AM »

@ Thaago:  If I try your Phase Lance Eagle, I think I prefer just two Heavy Needlers and the medium ballistic empty.  A bit less DPS, but better flux efficiency and more burst.  I tried three autocannons, but the flux load is a bit too high for comfort.  If I cannot use needlers, then one Heavy Autocannon and two Arbalests.  If I use Graviton Eagle, I prefer two Heavy Needlers and one Heavy Mauler.  Two HVDs and one Heavy Mauler is not quite enough firepower.
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