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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a  (Read 11064 times)

Megas

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Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« on: June 16, 2019, 07:05:51 AM »

What skills the player should be most interested in if he looks down the line and wants the best for endgame play.

Combat is where things are at.  Players probably want to be at least as powerful as a level 20 officer.  Detailed skill analysis has been done elsewhere and not really the point of this topic, and nearly all have their niche or use, except Helmsmanship 3.  Helmsmanship 3 is useless because moving at zero-flux speed with shields up only works when there is no combat and no need for shields.

Leadership has some useful skills or necessities.  Command and Control enables an unconventional playstyle.  Officer Management is one of the most powerful combat skills if you can deploy your whole fleet somehow.  Fleet Logistics does several very useful things even if the colony bonuses are ignored.  Coordinated Maneuvers removes the need to capture Nav points.  Carrier skills are combat skills for fighters.  Odd one out is Planetary Operations, which while good, is mostly colony stuff that is free with an alpha core.  Raiding bonuses are nice, but unnecessary for stealing blueprints - just get more marines.  Your character may not want everything here, but some, like Officer Managment and Fleet Logistics, are among the best for everyone.  The only one that is really unnecessary is Planetary Operations is because while useful, you can get the colony benefits for free with alpha cores.

Technology is a mix of powerful combat or other vital skills whose usefulness has been explained elsewhere.  Sensors is the weakest link, but even that skill has some use.

Industry skills seem mostly those that deal with problems that go away by endgame.  Safety Procedures is the only one that seems endgame worthy if one wants to E-Burn frequently or exploit lowered malfuction thresholds.  The rest of its bonuses apply to crew and clunkers.  Crew, you can easily buy more than you need, and for clunkers, you do not need them at endgame when you can afford and build as many pristine ships as you want.  Recovery Operations, the only perk that could be useful late is the one less (D) mod that sometimes lets your pristine ships that were disabled stay pristine when recovered.  Field Repairs is convenient, but nothing that more money cannot solve.    You do not need Salvaging by endgame after you have found every blueprint in the game.  It might help find more special items, but the skill is usually not needed, and raiding core worlds for the item is a last resort.  Colony Management and Industrial Planning are very useful, except it is better to abuse more and more AI cores that can be farmed and have Industrial Planning and other skills, than get the skills yourself.

In short, skills or perks to avoid when seeking maximum endgame power, and why:
  • Helmsmanship 3.  The perk is simply useless.
  • Colony skills aside from Fleet Logistics. Free from alpha cores, cores are safe to use (thanks Pather bug), and theoretically unlimited cores may be farmed by those who can smash Ordos fleets.
  • Other Industry skills.  Their perks become progressively less useful as player acquires more income and loot, then be able to easily afford and casually replace anything lost by endgame.
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Dexy

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2019, 08:31:48 AM »

Sensors needs to be a little more useful in combat. It would be nice if there was a deeper electronic warfare specialization that required more skill investment, and sensors would be a good fit.

Industry could use a skill that increases the quality of produced ships. It can lose some d-mod and salvaging related skills in my opinion.



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Megas

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2019, 09:03:58 AM »

Re: Sensors
The best part of sensors is Neutrino Detector, and that ability's best use is finding a hidden pirate base in a huge system like Penelope's Star.  I do not like Neutrino Detector as implemented, but I cannot deny its usefulness.  There were times I had a hard time finding a pirate base, and if I did not abuse game reloads, Neutrino Detector would have been very handy for base searching.

Sensors 2 is hilariously good with pure phase fleets.  Going Dark with such a fleet is normally 150 profile, but it becomes 50-something with Sensors 2.  Sneaking into Culann or Sindria to raid and steal blueprints almost becomes a snap with Sensors 2.  (Hiding after luring patrols away is easy with very small profile.)  But like Industry, this is pre-endgame since player should eventually get all of the blueprints after raiding long enough.  Once endgame rolls around, player should be powerful and wealthy enough to not need stealth.

For colony skills taken by player to have any long-term use, alpha cores need to have some meaningful drawback or limitations.  Pather cells working again might deter me, but probably not others.  Currently, the only event resembling a drawback for core use is inspections that are easily bribed away.  The bigger threat from inspections is missing the alert and have cores stolen by Hegemony unexpectedly because default response is "comply".

P.S.  I do not want Sensors to be a skill tax like Navigation 3 is.  Electronic Warfare 1 just to get basic EW defense is already plenty.

Also, the increased ship quality idea is a good one, especially if an alpha core cannot get that skill/perk.

I want to get colony skills myself and not rely on cores (because I want to rule a large self-sufficient empire without AI help), but the game heavily punishes me if I do this (by robbing me of twelve skill points better spent elsewhere) instead of farming and abusing alpha cores.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 09:19:47 AM by Megas »
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Thaago

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2019, 01:38:03 PM »

While I normally agree with you about Helmsmanship 3, it has one rather nice use case: it allows a ship with beams to use them without slowing down (if they are below dissipation limit). This is extremely helpful on a Paragon flagship, where the beam PD will turn on against very distant missile threats, the 50 speed bonus is the majority of its speed, and acceleration is slow. In practice, being able to fire the beams against tiny targets without slowing gets me to the battle a bunch faster in a hectic environment.
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Megas

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2019, 03:24:47 PM »

I was aware of beam boats that might be able to fire beams and move at full speed, but I doubt stuff like beam Wolf are powerful enough to matter in late-game fights where the enemy has ten capitals and twenty cruisers.  I suppose Paragon with various PD buffs can make good use of IPDAI LR PD or Tac Lasers.  Also depends on rest of the loadout.  If my Paragon is firing 1000 range weapons like HVDs, dissipation will be too high by the time PD weapons start firing, especially shorter-ranged burst PD.
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Thaago

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2019, 03:38:26 PM »

I need to test, I'm actually not sure if HVDs produce enough flux to trip a Paragon.
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Megas

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2019, 03:50:11 PM »

I need to test, I'm actually not sure if HVDs produce enough flux to trip a Paragon.
I do not know if HVDs alone would, but if Paragon is firing, then it can also unload heavy beams.  If it is lances, those will probably be fired manually, and player will probably hold fire if he needs to move.  HILs on the turrets will probably be on auto-fire, and then it is two HVDs and two HILs.  Admittedly, if I use HVDs, it is so Paragon can put hard flux with four tachyon lances at maximum range.  If I want to use HILs, I probably would use a more damaging kinetic like heavy needlers in the universals.

Update:  I just did Helms 3 and Paragon with HVDs test and... it is conditional.  If Paragon does nothing to boost flux capacity, then HVDs will cross the threshold and break zero-flux.  However, if Paragon has a bunch of capacitors, then HVDs can be fired without breaking the zero-flux bonus from Helms 3.  (I tend to ignore capacitors and either use campaign mods like Augmented Engines, boost dissipation to the max, or squeeze in missiles or fighters.)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 04:00:02 PM by Megas »
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Thaago

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2019, 05:21:28 PM »

Good to know! I'd still put it as a low value skill, but it does have at least some use case. The final benefit 'breaks the rules', so I think its a hard thing to balance in such a way that it is useful without being too much. Helm 3 working on carriers would be too much for example.
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Goumindong

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2019, 10:28:41 PM »

It used to be the case that a conquest could fire Gauss Cannons alternating continuously without tripping it. Those were the days.

Also you should never ignore capacitors. Caps are just as important as vents especially on a ship like the paragon
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SCC

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2019, 11:12:22 PM »

Helmsmanship 3: it's not a skill, it's an AI patch.
I agree that industry skills are mainly QoL stuff, but I don't think it's that bad, especially if, for some reason, you don't get a colony. I liked to get salvaging so that I don't have to tediously raid NPC colonies for blueprints, but with current changes it isn't so important anymore. Colony skills are useful, but alpha cores are still better, since you can manage any issue they might raise.

Caps are something you spend OP on after you max out vents and get all the hullmods you want.

Goumindong

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2019, 11:32:54 PM »

Caps are HP if youre primarily shield tanking. Some hull mods are more important but HP is HP and having more of it will win your flux wars.
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SCC

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2019, 11:44:25 PM »

Perhaps, but more often it's more important to keep firing without rising your own flux significantly, which is the main thing that limits your firepower. Higher dissipation also means that a ship will get back to the fight quicker. If I want to tank more on the shields, I try to get Hardened Shields: same benefit of being able to tank more, but without the issue of longer venting. There might be some situations where caps are preferred (like phase ships or Hyperion), but those are a minority of cases. Otherwise, I go for maximum vents and it means that most often 1% isn't enough to fire anything meaningful.

Null Ganymede

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2019, 03:31:44 AM »

There are no useless skills, only different play styles.

"Maximum endgame power" is a silly concept (especially once you install a few mods and can mix-and-match hullmods, wings, and weapons) and everything is viable once you add self-imposed restrictions. Hegemony commission? No Alpha cores for your colonies. Pirate run? No leadership skills. Etc.
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Megas

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2019, 05:23:10 AM »

Re: Helmsmanship 3 tricks with Paragon
After playing with Paragon more, it is quite possible to have it to kite-and-snipe with zero-flux bonus with Helmsmanship 3.  But it requires extremely high flux capacity to get there.  It is an edge case where you want Loadout Design 1 for 60 capacitors, Flux Coil Adjunct, and all of the flux skills and hullmods to get maximum flux capacity and some dissipation.  With all of that, Paragon can get 42500 flux capacity.  In addition, two HVDs should be Alternating instead of Linked in order to squeeze more firepower that can be used while keeping zero-flux bonus.  Alternating HVDs might need to be used manually at first because AI might still try to fire them linked despite alternating.  With Linked HVDs, Paragon can use two HVDs and either one Ion Beam or two Graviton beams.  With alternating HVDs, player can squeeze one among one HIL, two Ion Beams, or two Graviton Beams plus two Tactical Lasers.  Kind of fun driving around with a fast Paragon that can kite-and-snipe anything at least as big as a destroyer to death.

Re: flux capacity
Capacitors are useful, but how much needed varies by ship.  Paragon in particular has a stupid amount of capacity out-of-the-box (though not enough if player wants to do Helmsmanship 3 tricks with it), and it takes a while to vent unless player min-max dissipation.  Similarly, Conquest has decently high capacity and does not need to boost that unless it is missing Hardened Shields (in which case, Conquest needs high capacitors to make up for lack of Hardened Shields).  Odyssey (and some other ships) could use capacity, but it is OP starved enough that other more important stuff take priority over flux capacity.  On the other hand, phase ships need high capacity to stay phased as long as possible.

Re: Playstyles
I like to get colony skills myself because I want an empire and do not want to use cores.  But I realize that is a very sub-optimal way to play because I rob myself of twelve skill points.  (Three for dead Industry aptitude, three for Colony Management that is unnecessary with cores, three for Industrial Planning cores get for free, and three for Planetary Operations that cores get for free.)  That is a big sacrifice of combat power (like no Officer Management) or QoL just for role-playing or playing preference.  Basically, cores are the one true way to play if one cares about maximum power.

"Maximum endgame power" is a silly concept
Not when the best part is endgame and player wants to play there for that power trip.  As for mods, I usually play mod-less these days.  Mods tend to have power creep, even the good ones.
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Goumindong

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Re: Brief discussion of skills in 0.9.1a
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2019, 03:44:42 PM »

Perhaps, but more often it's more important to keep firing without rising your own flux significantly, which is the main thing that limits your firepower. Higher dissipation also means that a ship will get back to the fight quicker. If I want to tank more on the shields, I try to get Hardened Shields: same benefit of being able to tank more, but without the issue of longer venting. There might be some situations where caps are preferred (like phase ships or Hyperion), but those are a minority of cases. Otherwise, I go for maximum vents and it means that most often 1% isn't enough to fire anything meaningful.

Both are valuable. Yes, with dissipation generally more. But hardened shields are really just “more cap for your shields” as a mod*. Whether theyre valuable depends on how much base cap you have compared to its cost(usually is though)

*more cap also gives you more expanded firing time while hardened lets you vent hard flux a bit faster(because you have less of it). Both have their uses

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