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[Thaago]

Hardened Shields also gives enhanced protection from beams, as it multiples the effect of the flux dissipation. Not a huge concern, but occasionally a useful side effect.

There are a couple of niche builds I use that don't have maxed vents, but its a far rarer and more tricky situation. Ship design 101 is to max out vents, and its the correct call 90% of the time (for non-carriers at least).

[Goumindong]

No one eaid anything about not maxing out vents. Stop talking about not maxing out vents. Its caps you should also use because caps are also good. (Though not as good as vents)

[Thaago]

Actually SCC mentioned it here:

Helmsmanship 3: it's not a skill, it's an AI patch.
I agree that industry skills are mainly QoL stuff, but I don't think it's that bad, especially if, for some reason, you don't get a colony. I liked to get salvaging so that I don't have to tediously raid NPC colonies for blueprints, but with current changes it isn't so important anymore. Colony skills are useful, but alpha cores are still better, since you can manage any issue they might raise.

Caps are something you spend OP on after you max out vents and get all the hullmods you want.

And here:

Perhaps, but more often it's more important to keep firing without rising your own flux significantly, which is the main thing that limits your firepower. Higher dissipation also means that a ship will get back to the fight quicker. If I want to tank more on the shields, I try to get Hardened Shields: same benefit of being able to tank more, but without the issue of longer venting. There might be some situations where caps are preferred (like phase ships or Hyperion), but those are a minority of cases. Otherwise, I go for maximum vents and it means that most often 1% isn't enough to fire anything meaningful.

In both cases tying into the discussion of Navigation 3, the 1% flux limit, the scarcity of OP, and whether or not caps should be prioritized. In particular, both SCC and I mention how there ARE niche builds where vents aren't maxed and caps are preferred: I can see a fast beam paragon with Nav 3 that is designed for high speed area coverage for fighting small ships being one of these cases.

[RedHellion]

My two cents:

Combat is where things are at.  Players probably want to be at least as powerful as a level 20 officer.

I'm also one of the "each to their own playstyle" people who thinks the usual advice to max out the Combat tree is... situational. As opposed to solo-ing battles as an unstoppable single ship and piloting a succession of my own flagships against the enemy fleet, I prefer to play as a seasoned fleet commander whose strength is in the full might of the fleet and composition he brings to bear. I also find building for end-game optimization while ignoring early- and mid-game boring/frustrating during said early- and mid-game, if it's not already the play style I personally find enjoyable.

it is better to abuse more and more AI cores that can be farmed... than get the skills yourself.

I also hate grinding for things (such as Alpha Cores or specific blueprints), and don't expect them to be a mandatory part of my build.


I actually never upgrade the Combat tree beyond level 1, and usually only put 6-7 points into it in total with 1 point in about half the skills which give a meaningful bonus at level 1. If I try to max out the tree, that's 1/3-1/2 of my attribute points which could be better spent elsewhere buffing my entire fleet instead of me personally.

I usually upgrade every other tree up to level 3 and focus on skills which improve my fleet as a whole (as well as colony skills, obviously). That way the effect of those skills is multiplied by every ship in my fleet which I can bring to bear in a fight, rather than only improving my personal combat power.

Leadership I usually just go for Fleet Logistics, Officer Management, Planetary Operations, and the fleet-buff Carrier skill. Occasionally Command & Control gets a few points if I get frustrated running out of command points trying to get my fleet to act sensibly. The skill for top speed boost obviously also gets at least one point, but not usually more.

Technology gets a lot of points, since most of its skills involve buffing the fleet as a whole in combat or on the campaign map. Sensors I usually leave with a single point for the Neutrino Scanner, and the weapon range boost skill gets the same treatment as the top speed booster from the Leadership tree. Most things in this tree at least get to level 2, Loadout Design obviously getting level 3 unconditionally.

Industry depends on whether I'm doing a junker playthrough or not. If so, most if not all of these skills get level 3. If not, then only Colony Management and Industrial Planning get maxed and the skills for repairing for free after battles, less chance of D-mods on recovered ships, and better salvage results, get a few points.

TL;DR
- Drop Combat skills in favour of fleet-wide buffs in Technology/Leadership which are compounded for every ship you have in combat other than the one you're piloting
- Colony skills are a must, since you can govern up to 3 colonies yourself with just 2 skill points in Colony Management even if you skip the 3rd level of that skill
- Industry skills for free repairs and fewer D-mods on recovered ships are very useful to recover from mistakes made in combat, and for fighting multiple enemy fleets in a row (or the same one(s) over and over)
- Campaign bonuses for decreased supply and fuel usage are a must
- Loadout Design 3, obviously

[Megas]

I am not interested in getting personal combat skills to solo fleets.  Skills are too weak for that now, and AI likes to run away as much as it can get away with.  The point of lots of combat skills is to at least match a simple level 20 officer.  It is no fun being weaker than an NPC, even if player focuses too much on fleet, colony, or simple QoL skills.

Even a combat nut will (try to) take enough fleet skills to make his fleet good enough.  Stuff like Fleet Logistics, Electronic Warfare, and Loadout Design are no-brainers for all.  If it was easy to always deploy ten ships, Officer Management would be a must-have too.  But when it is hard to deploy even five ships, that skill looks less useful to max.  Fighter Doctrine is good if player can always deploy carriers (which is not a given if map size is small like the default 300).

Keep in mind that I focus mostly on endgame, when player can enjoy playing on legalized godmode, as stated by the OP.  Just because skills are useful early in the game does not mean they are good at the end after they outlive their (peak) usefulness.

In 0.8.x, Surveying and Salvaging would have been great crutch skills to jump start a game and blow through early-game hell fast with easy money.  But, once player gets to endgame, he has plenty of money and no longer needs those skills.  He trades maximum endgame power for easier early-game.

Many of the junker skills feel like crutch skills whose purpose is to mitigate penalties from clunkers.  When player can afford and build everything at the end of game progression (except growing colonies bigger), using junk is not as good as using the best, and player can easily afford the best at endgame after he obtains everything he wants to support his godmode habit.

Colony skills are a must, but that does not mean the player has to get those skills himself.  Since alpha cores have all of the colony skills, and they can be farmed (drop rates are good enough that fighting big Ordos fleets will yield some), and they are completely safe to use, player that wants maximum endgame power should avoid colony skills like the plague and use cores instead.  As player skills, they are good crutch skills during the midgame before player has everything, but once endgame rolls around and player has obtained a few cores, it will be time for buyer's remorse if points were spent in colony skills.

Junker playthrough may be fine, but generally becomes obsolete or sub-optimal by endgame after player makes high income and can easily replace losses with pristine ships and other stuff by spending a fraction of monthly income and buy as much as he needs from his own colonies.

[Thaago]

As a combat nut I can confirm: I get fleet logistics, EW1, and LD3 - but I get them after I have a solid foundation of combat skills. In the early game my fleet only has a few ships and my officers are low level: its just not worth it to invest in fleet skills yet.

[Megas]

@ Thaago:  You seem to swear by Navigation too, I think.  If so, I can see why.  I tried to play without Navigation in my 0.9.1a game, and while possible, it was a real drag at times being forced to bring four tugs to reach burn 20, and no T-jump in big systems.  Would have been worse if the best colony system happened to be in a monstrously huge system that took weeks to leave without T-jump.  I was fortunate that my colony systems were small or otherwise not too big.  I do not want to play again without Navigation, much as I want to save the points for another skill.

While I like a big empire and would get all of the colony skills, doing that means too many combat or QoL skills get put on the chopping block.

[Kanil]

The point of lots of combat skills is to at least match a simple level 20 officer.  It is no fun being weaker than an NPC...

Getting to the "end game" stage can also feature things that are no fun, too. I'd rather spend 6 points on salvaging and not have to survey so much of the sector to find the blueprints I want, than to skip it and be slightly stronger at the point in the game where I can just deploy infinite Paragons anyway.

[Thaago]

Yeah, Navigation is the first tech skill I get, even before more OP. This is more my desire to save real life time than any gameplay power concern though. It just makes things more pleasant - faster exploration cause I can T-jump right onto a planet and then fly to the jump point, rather than do a full round trip - or even T jump back out again. Faster going through storm clouds, and that nice +1 burn.

[Megas]

Classic easy early-game crutch resource vs. maximum endgame power.

Getting to the "end game" stage can also feature things that are no fun, too.

True, but the early-game killjoy is only fleeting and temporary.  If player toughs it out through early game hell without crutches, he is stronger because he did not waste resources on things that lost their usefulness at the end of the game, assuming the part player is most interested in playing is the endgame.  (For those who played Diablo 2, there was a reason why nearly every guide says do not put points in Energy ever even if the extra mana would help in Normal difficulty.  Energy was the universal dump stat except maybe for energy shield sorceress build.)  An exception can be made for permadeath games where if you die, it is game over and no endgame, but Starsector does not feature permadeath.

Six skill points is not "slightly", that is a big deal.  That is the difference because a level 14 officer and a level 20 officer.  That is two level 3 skills that can make your ship stronger (or other powerful bonus).

I have lots of fun with colony skills... until I see I wasted twelve points when I could have held out longer until I found enough Alpha cores to plant.  The twelve points would have gone to skills I wanted but could never get if I took colony skills myself.

[Megas]

Yeah, Navigation is the first tech skill I get, even before more OP. This is more my desire to save real life time than any gameplay power concern though. It just makes things more pleasant - faster exploration cause I can T-jump right onto a planet and then fly to the jump point, rather than do a full round trip - or even T jump back out again. Faster going through storm clouds, and that nice +1 burn.

In my case, Navigation is most helpful for either squeezing more time I can spend doing something fun instead of endless policing of the sector ("Stop, Pirate!") or for dumping two tugs for more combat ships in my fleet.  (Or instead of dumping two tugs, I dump Augmented Engines off of my capitals to make them even bigger combat monsters.)

Navigation is not only useful for saving real-time, but also in-game time when there are too many threats to deal with.  It hurts after I kill a pirate base, I need to spend two in-game weeks before I make it to the jump point, and I still have timed missions or other sector threats to deal with before time is up, and T-jumping out of the system instead of spending time helps.

The most memorable recurring traveling annoyance I encountered was a pirate base spawning in a neutron star system.  Cross pulsar beam once (with E-Burn) to reach pirate base.  Cross pulsar beam a second time to reach jump point, or wait a while if pulsar beam engulfs the jump point for about an in-game week.

[Kanil]

Six skill points is not "slightly", that is a big deal.  That is the difference because a level 14 officer and a level 20 officer.  That is two level 3 skills that can make your ship stronger (or other powerful bonus).


I have lots of fun with colony skills... until I see I wasted twelve points when I could have held out longer until I found enough Alpha cores to plant.  The twelve points would have gone to skills I wanted but could never get if I took colony skills myself.

That's not the difference between a level 14 and level 20 officer, because player skills aren't capped at 20. You'll probably end up missing out on some of the less useful Leadership skills.

Meanwhile if you're planting tons of alpha cores on your colonies, you probably already have enough money and ships that 3, 6, or even all of the skills aren't going to make the difference in any fight at any point in time.

Obviously if you want to absolutely maximize your power with zero other considerations, you're not going to take such skills and just going to grind it out. If you don't want to invest that much real time in grinding out cores and blueprints however, then they're pretty helpful... and again, don't actually cost you that much combat power.

[Megas]

That's not the difference between a level 14 and level 20 officer, because player skills aren't capped at 20. You'll probably end up missing out on some of the less useful Leadership skills.

It is a difference if spending six on crutch skills instead of power skills means you can only max five combat skills instead of seven.

Obviously if you want to absolutely maximize your power with zero other considerations, you're not going to take such skills and just going to grind it out.

I would think so if I consider "What skills the player should be most interested in if he looks down the line and wants the best for endgame play."  Which is the very first sentence of the OP.  The topic was biased against crutch skills and favored endgame skills munchkins or competitive-minded players who plan to spend most of their playing time at endgame would take (because they like the power trip and playing with all of the game's toys) from the very start.

If you don't want to invest that much real time in grinding out cores and blueprints however, then they're pretty helpful... and again, don't actually cost you that much combat power.

It does not look like that, but it costs more than you think, especially if I want to grab all of the crutch or QoL skills.  I cannot grab all of the colony skills (grade A crutch skills with cores as they are), plus Navigation, plus some fleet skills without sacrificing too many points for personal combat.  If I take all of the skills I want except personal combat skills, I only have enough for level 14 or 16 (depending how much Officer Management gets sacrificed) at best.  If I abuse cores and forsake colony skills, and I should since cores are safe to use and will be found, then I have more than enough points to match a level 20 officer and take another fleet or QoL skill.

[Goumindong]

A better way to say it and something i look at when evaluating leveling designs is what i might call a "non re-specification principle"

Assuming a fully informed player "The path of a build is consistent with across any given starting level" or "If you could respec at any time you would not so long as your desired end game build did not change."

Currently the game fails at this. You want both QOL skills now, but you might want to dump them later. The dead point issue doesn't do a lot to ameliorate this issue.

That being said, skills are something being worked on for .1 (IIRC) so worrying too much about it now when we don't know what Alex's solution looks like isn't that valuable.