Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Usefull Additions to the game  (Read 2721 times)

TrashMan

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
    • View Profile
Usefull Additions to the game
« on: June 04, 2019, 03:07:32 AM »

MutableShipStats additions that cover a few more cases - like mount size bonuses/penalties (for example, if you want to boost only small weapons), only PD weapons and such

Damage Falloff/Bonus with distance function. I guess this could be handled via a custom script for a weapon projectile? But would it work for beams?

Fighter sizes - basically, wing_data.cvs gets a new column, size/volume/space that indicates just how big it is. (1- small fighter, 2-normal fighter, 3-large fighter/fighter-bomber, 4-bomber, 5-large bomber, 5+ = superbomber/gunship)
Ship would get their own value for their hangars.
This means that regardless of ordinance points, you can limit some fighter/bomber wings from being equipped on specific ships. So you'd need a big ship with a big hangar and big hangar doors to carry those super-bombers that are almost a frigate onto themselves.
Logged

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2019, 03:20:33 AM »

Didn't you make a thread about the fighter size thing? I remember there being a discussion about it..

My stance on that hasn't changed much. All launchable strike craft should fit your average hangars. Viabiliy is accounted for by OP. If they're either so large that they require specialized hangars or the mothership is so tiny that it can only launch special ships, they can be hardwired to the hangar slots, as is being done for drones.
Logged

TrashMan

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2019, 07:39:59 AM »

Didn't you make a thread about the fighter size thing? I remember there being a discussion about it..

My stance on that hasn't changed much. All launchable strike craft should fit your average hangars. Viabiliy is accounted for by OP. If they're either so large that they require specialized hangars or the mothership is so tiny that it can only launch special ships, they can be hardwired to the hangar slots, as is being done for drones.

It was a long time ago, so time to revisit it.
Also, that is highly inflexible and makes little sense that hangar sizes should be standardized. Why would they be?
Just look at carriers today, that have far fewer limitations than a space carrier would have and are limited in what craft they can resonably launch and carry based on size.

The idea that a tiny frigate carrier can carry several wings of giant bombers is, was and will be silly. Volume and size has to mean something.
Logged

goduranus

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 925
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2019, 07:56:03 AM »

While different sizes seem superfluous, I do think the icons for fighters and bombers should be different.

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2019, 08:47:12 AM »

The idea that a tiny frigate carrier can carry several wings of giant bombers is, was and will be silly. Volume and size has to mean something.

I think the discussion touched on this last time. Bombers and fighters in Starsector are roughly the same size. There are big examples of each, but there are no giants. Those would probably be counted as small frigates.
Logged

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2019, 08:54:56 AM »

Volume/size is represented by the number of wing slots available. Smaller carriers have less slots because they have less space on board. Each wing its roughly the same size. Adding more complexity to that wouldn't affect gameplay but would be a UI nightmare and a pain to figure out as the player. It would also reduce the amount of choice the player has, and there aren't that many choices already for fighters, so I don't think this is a good idea. There are also no frigate sized carriers (only drone ships) in vanilla, the smallest are destroyers with one or two slots which seems reasonable from a lore perspective.
Logged

Midnight Kitsune

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2846
  • Your Friendly Forum Friend
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2019, 11:48:16 AM »

Yeah, the wing size stuff just sounds like complexity for complexity's sake
Logged
Help out MesoTroniK, a modder in need

2021 is 2020 won
2022 is 2020 too

TrashMan

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2019, 12:13:18 AM »

The idea that a tiny frigate carrier can carry several wings of giant bombers is, was and will be silly. Volume and size has to mean something.

I think the discussion touched on this last time. Bombers and fighters in Starsector are roughly the same size. There are big examples of each, but there are no giants. Those would probably be counted as small frigates.

So what if I want ship that can carry frigates?
And why would they be the same size? How would that account for the difference in payload and armor?

@intrinsic_party - nightmare? How? It's no different from weapon mount sizes. What a ship can't carry simple won't be listed.

It's not complexity for complexity's sake, it serves a purpose of hard distinctions and limitations between fighters AND carriers that Ordinance Points simply cannot offer. There is no way to make a carrier with lots of OP's (because you want it that way), but limit what fighters it can use.
And to use custom hullmods to limit becomes a nightmare if you have more than 1 ship and 1 fighter wing. Even more if you have multiple factions.

As changes go, it would be a simple one to implement. Vanilla would remain unaffected (unless someone wants to change that), so it's a change that would have no negative effect on your experience, but would give modders far more options. I don't see a problem here.
Logged

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2019, 12:20:58 AM »

There's no difference in payload and armor. Torpedos are 'somewhat' larger than i.e. Harpoons, but fighters carry Harpoons just fine on top of other armaments. The Dagger bomber is tiny compared to some fighters. It's just a cockpit, engine and shield generator basically.

If we were talking about B-52 alikes with hundreds of bombs on board and the ability to make hour long runs, that would be different. Strike craft in Starsector do a single run, carry 1-2 torpedos or a handful of bombs or Annihilators. Small Annihilators cost 4 OP and have more ammo than what Kophesh carries. That's less OP than some fighters manage to fit in weaponry.
Logged

TrashMan

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2019, 12:35:09 AM »

There's no difference in payload and armor.

Of course there is. An anti-capital missile cannot be the same mass/size as an anti-fighter one, and bombers do have all that armor that fighters generally don't. And even a small difference in size can be quite significant. Ordinance Points are not a direct measure of volume, they re a balancing tool.
That said, sizes in SS are not exact (if they were, then space stations are laughably small).

And again, this isn't a suggestion aimed at altering vanilla. It's aimed to expand modding capabilities.
Logged

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2019, 12:41:40 AM »

You're comparing one anti-capital missile (at most 4 OP for dual Atropos) to a magazine of swarmer SRMs plus a Vulcan, which is in itself 4 OP, going by the example of a Talon interceptor. Yes, they are comparable. I would argue that OP are a balancing tool and can be used just the same as a rough estimation of size, volume, difficulty of operation etc.

Bombers are usually less armored than fighters.

Anyway.. got no problem with the suggestion or the fact that it's aimed to improve modding, really. But please don't suggest that strike craft as they exist in vanilla SS are different from fighters. Just look at the sprites!
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 12:48:32 AM by Schwartz »
Logged

TrashMan

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2019, 05:02:50 AM »

Forgot something - Static custom fleets!
What does that mean? When you create your own faction you can assign one of your officer to lead a customized defense fleet that will always protect the planet/colony. Limit to one fleet per colony.
Naturally, when you do that you loose that officer and free an officer slot to get a new one.
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2019, 12:09:28 PM »

Some thoughts on this stuff:

1.  It's still totally possible to have fighters-that-are-actually-Frigates, using mechanics that definitely limit their availability, however, that's totally not the way the current systems for Wings, etc. are set up. 

I realize that cause some absurdity, visually, but I agree with the others on this; Alex's clear intent here was that fighters just aren't Frigates, shouldn't have Frigate-sized graphics, etc.

So, to get from A-->B on the launchable, special Frigates... I did that in Vacuum, years ago, where a special "missile launcher" launched Frigate-sized fighters that were actually Frigates, but couldn't be captured and a few other things. 

Totally doable; the problem with incorporating that concept directly into Vanilla mainly has to do with the Missiles having tiers and where it'd go, in terms of relative power level; basically, a Fighter created that way would have to be balanced, OP-wise, vs. having one of the powerful Missile launchers (or, heck, you could go the other way, and have super-weak, tiny drone-like Fighters that launched from ordinary missile hardpoints).  That's probably doable, without breaking Vanilla's system or looking visually bad, but it'd also mean that the ships could be missile-heavy, or that missile-ships could suddenly be carriers, etc.
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

TrashMan

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2019, 12:21:16 PM »

I didn't say it wasn't doable, just that it was a mess to get it to work, and even then it's going to be wonky. And that's just for ONE ship.

Basically, what I was thinking was Battle Rider Carrier from Sword of the Stars.
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: Usefull Additions to the game
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2019, 01:09:18 PM »

Hmm.  I haven't played either of those games.  Can you describe the mechanics?  I'm sure that there's a reasonable solution, if it's a specific ship.  Based on what little I read about SotS, sounds like the Battle Rider was basically a way to mount ships on ships; ought to be pretty easy to develop, frankly; the system in Vacuum worked fine; the complications I had were related to Vacuum's in-game capturing systems.
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack
Pages: [1] 2