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Author Topic: Dead weight Paragon  (Read 8060 times)

goduranus

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Dead weight Paragon
« on: June 03, 2019, 08:59:36 AM »

So I was carrier spamming some more, guess what works best with carrier spam? It's Paragons, well not battle Paragons, but poorly armed Paragons equipped with Augmented Drive Field and Efficiency Overhaul, that you haul around simply to get that 60 DP worth of outnumbering bonus. This gives you more carrier spam and fewer enemies on the field, so that you get a much more concentrated fighter swarm, possibly taking down enemies 100% faster.

Math:
No dead weight Paragons = 200 DP Player vs 300 DP enemy = 0.67 Player vs Enemy
10 dead weight Paragons = 300 DP Player vs 200 DP enemy = 1.5 Player vs enemy
1.5/0.67= 238% Firepower concentration!

Loadout:
https://sectorloadouts.info/view/Sk9KeXSBczqJqBkjb

Here is a vid of a fleet hauling 10 dead weight paragons curbstomping 2 redacted doom fleets including 4 radiant battleships in 6 minutes. I don't think the battle would be won so quickly if paragons had been used for combat instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR34FH02ggs
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 09:06:09 AM by goduranus »
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Thaago

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2019, 09:15:00 AM »

Welp. Thats a thing.
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Megas

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2019, 09:23:24 AM »

That is a lot of fuel to haul the whole fleet across the sector, if you did not have a colony next to the Remnants.  Of course, if I wanted to farm them, I would want a pop-up colony nearby.

Those Paragons are not exactly dead weight in a fight, although deploying them would defeat the purpose of the exercise (of shifting total DP balance of both sides).
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Nick XR

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2019, 09:23:52 AM »

Based on my experience with a Paragon (and reading and combat results data) the Paragon isn't useful in combat for it's DP.  It'll routinely get out damaged by low end cruisers, and compared to the other capital ships Onslaught and Conquest, it's actually pretty pathetic :/    Maybe it's thing isn't supposed to be damage, maybe it's supposed to be a brick.  But if that's true under AI control it just sort of lumbers near the back not doing much (where being a brick doesn't matter), or it's under player control and you're hoping your fleet mates will kill the stuff that's trying to kill you, which can be dicey. 

Maybe there are paragon loadouts where it can come near the Conquest/Onslaught performance of damage/DP (or just parity on damage at all), but I haven't seen it. Further all the quantitative data I've seen on the Paragon from personal use suggests it's not worth it.

Euphytose

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2019, 09:28:59 AM »

and compared to the other capital ships Onslaught and Conquest, it's actually pretty pathetic :/

The Onslaught is better at rushing the enemy, because nobody can escape it. But saying the Conquest is better than the Paragon is just wrong. A Tachyon Lance Paragon just about obliterates anything in sight. It's currently, at least in my opinion, the true "end-game" ship. Once you have this bad boy outfitted correctly, you might as well restart a new game, it's game over for the enemy.
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Megas

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2019, 09:30:30 AM »

Paragon's main use in combat is sniping things dead with beams (and HVD or Heavy Needler) from long range.  If limited to hard-flux weapons for offense (i.e., autopulse or plasma cannon), then it is just a high-tech Onslaught or Conquest without the mobility (and extra DP cost).  I would not use Paragon if I do not have lances or HILs and I can use Onslaught or Conquest instead.

Paragon is great against human fleets.  Against Remnant fleets, their bigger ships are resilient to the beam spam that devastates human fleets.

As for the topic, using Paragon to deny enemy the DP advantage and force them into DP disadvantage is a clever abuse of the game rules.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 09:32:21 AM by Megas »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2019, 09:39:30 AM »

Paragon is definitely not outgunned by cruisers, but it is also definitely too much DP. 4x tach lance obliterates stuff. 4x auto pulse is terrifying, but honestly not worth the DP, I would like to see the DP reverted to 50. That felt like a good balance to me.
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Schwartz

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2019, 09:46:03 AM »

Gotta love how the conversation immediately went elsewhere. Paragon is the strongest ship in the game.

As far as hauling dead ships around to up your DP.. that's an issue. I don't like the current balancing mechanic for DP. Would rather both sides got the same DP. Or that enemies got a flat bonus (maybe roughly corresponding to size or size beyond player fleet size) without reducing player DP.

Like.. you get to set player DP in the settings, and then the enemies get that + X. 300 vs 360. 400 vs 480. Something like that.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 09:48:50 AM by Schwartz »
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goduranus

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2019, 10:03:21 AM »

The bigger fleet getting a DP bonus was suppose to represent the bigger fleet enveloping the smaller fleet and attacking its flanks with the extra ships it has.

Vind

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2019, 11:38:09 AM »

I use doom phase ships as dead-weight - due to vast fuel storage and good DP cost.
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TJJ

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2019, 12:08:55 PM »

Why not just all Astrals?  ;D

Then the 'dead weight' isn't dead, and you can cycle a viable fleet practically forever!
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goduranus

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2019, 12:26:16 PM »

Astrals aren't useful for fighter spamming because they aren't fast enough to run away when being pushed by cruisers, and also can't replace fighter losses fast enough because of the special system. They also have less DP than the Paragon as dead weight.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 12:32:33 PM by goduranus »
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Goumindong

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2019, 01:06:25 PM »

Why not just all Astrals?  ;D

Then the 'dead weight' isn't dead, and you can cycle a viable fleet practically forever!

Because the goal is as many deployment points per logistical capacity (which in this case is either fuel use, fuel capacity, or slots). Paragon is top for Deployment Points per slot. Doom is second for fuel use. Hyperion is tops for fuel use. Prometheus Mk II is tops for fuel capacity effective (it brings 80 LY of its own fuel compared to 50 for the doom and 15 for the Hyperion and 56 for the Odyssey.
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eidolad

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2019, 04:47:12 PM »

An impressive feat of financial power to forge The Grandest Fleet  (a nod to a classic turn-based naval strat game).  A fleet of ten active, crewed Paragons, and 20 fully crewed carriers (I mention "crewed" but not really concerned about the crew salaries for a faction that could build and deploy all of these)...

...however is carrying 1200 total supplies and is burning 114 of them in...a single day.

A @six day radius of operations even IF all battles conducted are break-even on supplies?
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Flying Birdy

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Re: Dead weight Paragon
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2019, 05:16:31 PM »

So here's a thought experiment for you guys

What would be the most cost-effective "dead weight" ship to lug around for this kind of carrier spamming strat? I'm farming remnants in my game right now and flying around 5 capitals is already crazy fuel intensive, not to mention bringing 10 for the deadweight.  I'm talking about just in terms of fuel. I'm less concerned about supplies, as I can always suicide for d-mods on my ships for maintenance reduction.
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