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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Personal Contacts (08/13/20)

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Author Topic: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap  (Read 4348 times)

Morbo513

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2019, 02:29:55 PM »

I am 200% in favour of getting rid of the hard-fleet-cap. Supply upkeep is plenty incentive not to go overboard. I also liked the Max Supply/Month as a cap instead, was part of SS+ if I remember right. It makes a lot more sense when 40 frigates aren't of the same strength as 40 onslaughts.
When I'm toward end-game, I like to have trios or pairs of frigates I can cycle through in the bigger battles, either as escorts for capitals (2+ per) or as more independent attack "wings". Current cap means I can keep maybe one trio in reserve without sacrificing the number of larger ships I'm fielding.
It also promotes scrap-ball fleets as a viable strategy. But you just can't take advantage of that possibility when your everyday large NPC fleet will always outnumber you AND have a technological/quality advantage.
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Awe

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2019, 03:03:17 PM »

Hmm, let me just look at the math here.

5x Phaeton is 3000 fuel, 10 fuel / ly, and 15 supplies / month. Those are reduced to 8 fuel/ly and 12 supplies/month with EO.

1x Prometheus is 2500 fuel, 10 fuel / ly, and 10 supplies / month. Without EO, that's about the same in terms of supplies and a decent bit more fuel/ly.

So, yeah, what you're saying here checks out as well. It would make sense to ramp up the efficiency of larger haulers more so that 1x Prometheus was more efficient than 5x Phaeton or w/e assuming the Phaetons have EO and the Prometheus does not. Likewise for the Atlas vs Colossus; the Atlas seems to be considerably worse off than the Prometheus in this type of comparison.

Let me make a note about this - there's really no good reason to make the player lug around larger numbers stat-booster ships when the same effect could be concentrated in far fewer ships.

This is really good, I think - a fairly minor change that should make a solid impact.

Look, please, at the surveying equipment mod in that case too. At some stage its anyway better to have more smaller ships than few larger, just because of how survey bonus now work. Its not like I hit fleet cap in my exloration missions, but less ships and less micromanagment is always nice. 3-5 phaetons, 5-10 colossuses is typical for me, and I gladly change them for Prometheuses and Atlases. (well, probably, not. low burn is issue too)

PS Rising limit of logistcal hull mods for bigger ships can make them more useful even without direct efficiency buff.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 03:11:57 PM by Awe »
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Alex

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2019, 05:51:43 PM »

Look, please, at the surveying equipment mod in that case too. At some stage its anyway better to have more smaller ships than few larger, just because of how survey bonus now work.

Good point, made a note.

PS Rising limit of logistcal hull mods for bigger ships can make them more useful even without direct efficiency buff.

Interesting idea, but it might devolve into "get everything possibly useful" rather than "make choices with tradeoffs". Will keep it in mind, though.
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Megas

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2019, 05:59:22 PM »

I do not use Atlas anymore unless I need to haul a bunch of commodities from one colony to another (to prepare for shortage mitigation).  Colossus or mass Apogees seem to do the trick for general loot hauling.  Even Colossus 3 is nice as a dual-purpose ground raider and hauler.

Prometheus is useful if I need to haul a lot of fuel (since there is no cruiser tanker), and can squeeze Augmented Engines and Efficiency Overhaul.

The big spike from cruiser to capital is the main reason I avoid too many capitals in my fleet, especially haulers that cannot fight.  Once, I scuttled my Prometheus because I needed to cut fuel use (due to too low fuel), and it was the cheapest and most expendable ship to replace.

EDIT:  If bar mission rewards scale based on how much cargo space I have available, then bringing several Atlases could be handy for triggering those fat reward missions instead of usually seeing those that only offer pocket change.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 06:04:51 PM by Megas »
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Megas

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2019, 06:24:30 AM »

I should mention I use mostly junk fleet until endgame.  Without commission and easy access to pristine large ships, most of what I use for most of the game are whatever I recover from the enemy.  Early game is whatever pirates use.  I do not build Heavy Industry until I can handle expeditions.  (If I cannot, I avoid building big industries that attract expeditions, like Heavy Industry.)

I also liked the Max Supply/Month as a cap instead, was part of SS+ if I remember right.
Back when Increased Maintenance did not exist, I think.  That (D) mod would be a real killer with big ships.  (It kind of is already.)

Not to mention Efficiency Overhaul more of a must-have (and I already throw it on everything), since that reduces supplies and other stats used per month.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 06:39:29 AM by Megas »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2019, 07:38:43 AM »

I found it was really easy to get pristine ships from the black market and almost entirely avoid heavily d-moded ships. Most of the time they just scan you and don't do anything and even when you get hit with the rep penalty, it's only -5 which is nothing. Most things below capital size can be found quite. Sindria in particular always has a ton of nice military ships for sale on the black market. I honestly don't see much reason to use d-moded ships when the skills that make them decent don't scale into late game at all. Honestly the black market penalties need to be way harsher, I just buy ships with transponder on and don't care.
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Megas

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2019, 09:13:28 AM »

I found it was really easy to get pristine ships from the black market and almost entirely avoid heavily d-moded ships. Most of the time they just scan you and don't do anything and even when you get hit with the rep penalty, it's only -5 which is nothing. Most things below capital size can be found quite. Sindria in particular always has a ton of nice military ships for sale on the black market. I honestly don't see much reason to use d-moded ships when the skills that make them decent don't scale into late game at all. Honestly the black market penalties need to be way harsher, I just buy ships with transponder on and don't care.
Yes, black market sometimes has the ships, but they are so expensive if it is not a cheap frigate (that is probably obsolete) or Shrike (P).  I rarely buy ships because I want to save money for the biggest ship or a colony.  Does not mean I never buy ships, but I think twice before doing so.  I do pick up Tempests and Afflictors.  Afflictor is as good as Reaper Harbinger against some of the more annoying enemies.

I do not use skills at all to make zombie fleet style better.  I use clunkers because they are cheap and work well enough early in the game, and if I take a casualty, I do not care too much (although I reload and replay battles more now with Increased Maintenance and Erratic Fuel Injector introduced).  Also, because if I lose pristine ships, they become clunkers if recovered, and I cannot afford pristine replacements or restorations that early in the game.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 09:17:20 AM by Megas »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2019, 09:36:41 AM »

The prices as far as I can tell are the same as open market minus tariffs. I just saved my pennies. I always buy tempest, and often I will buy pristine hammerheads. I also like to buy a pristine player ship for myself (sunder is a common choice) and then I will buy drovers and most decent cruisers once I have the cash. I found that the jump from frigates to destroyers felt big, but after that things sped along nicely. Colonies can wait until I have a fleet to defend them.
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AxleMC131

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2019, 11:07:57 PM »

I also liked the Max Supply/Month as a cap instead, was part of SS+ if I remember right.
Back when Increased Maintenance did not exist, I think.  That (D) mod would be a real killer with big ships.  (It kind of is already.)

The "Increased Maintenance" D-mod was added in the latest version of Starsector. ??? SS+ has been defunct for far longer than that.
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Goumindong

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2019, 11:36:55 PM »

Logistics supply only triggered on base, not modofied maintenance anyway.
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TrashMan

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2019, 01:43:55 AM »

I found it was really easy to get pristine ships from the black market and almost entirely avoid heavily d-moded ships. Most of the time they just scan you and don't do anything and even when you get hit with the rep penalty, it's only -5 which is nothing. Most things below capital size can be found quite. Sindria in particular always has a ton of nice military ships for sale on the black market. I honestly don't see much reason to use d-moded ships when the skills that make them decent don't scale into late game at all. Honestly the black market penalties need to be way harsher, I just buy ships with transponder on and don't care.

I find pristine capital ships on OPEN MARKET, something is not right.
There really is no need to do commissions  or trying to get high Rep, when you can get any ship from either the Black or Open Market.
 
The military SHOULD care if someone is driving around in THEIR battleship/supercarrier without them ever approving the sale.
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Max_z

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2019, 07:18:34 AM »

Maybe have an additional row (5) of mothballed ships?
Like you fill the cap with 30 ships but can have 5 more mothballed, and can't un-mothball unless you free the required slot(s).
You can always mothball the other too (1 active + 34 mothballed)
This would allow some post-battle recovery even at full cap
Does it sound reasonable?
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Recklessimpulse

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2019, 07:57:16 AM »

Sadly not really 10 might be reasonable but 30 sounds like a better number for that idea if we put a limit at all.
   Capitals are often the last to die so you need to be able to see all possible salvage options.
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Max_z

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2019, 08:38:53 AM »

be able to see all possible salvage options.
Cyan Leader get the issue up on another Suggestion
30? Do you need to pull another fleet? (The refit screen scrollbar might implode ;))
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MichaelFrazzy

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Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2019, 03:51:56 PM »

Does anyone know how to remove/change the cap on a Mac? I have been trying over and over to figure out how to raise the fleet/ship cap in the config files for Mac since I am without a PC for a while here. No matter how much I search or how many forum posts I read I cannot find the line to change that in the package contents. If someone could PLEASE teach me how to do that, or if anyone has a simple pre-made mod I can load in, I would be extremely grateful.

This is one of my favorite games but for a lot of reasons mentioned here, playing with the cap on really messes with the mid/late game for me since I love having multiple waves + smaller, faster ships mixed in with capital ships. I can make a new post if this is too much of a side tangent. Thanks in advance!
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