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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Author Topic: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!  (Read 2976 times)

Megas

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Even ignoring battlestations, fleets in 0.9.x are huge compared to what they used to be back when peak performance was added during 0.6.x days.  Before 0.9, fights would finish quickly enough unless player (or AI during 0.8.x) tried to kite excessively or use intentionally short-fused ships like Hyperion.  Today, fights can be a real slog (even with doubled game speed), especially on smaller map sizes where player will duel multiple capitals and cruisers, plus the occasional battlestation, late in the game.  It does not help that AI still has much of its cowardly tendencies from 0.8 and will kite when it can.  Player is practically forced to use capitals and cruisers late in the game just so they last long enough before peak performance times out.

As for how much more time, I do not know, maybe a minute or two?
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Thaago

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2019, 11:56:55 AM »

I haven't noticed fights lasting any longer than past versions? Every once in a while in endgame fights I will need to retire my destroyers early, but cruisers are safe. I think the time pressure is in general good, as it encourages more exciting play.

We could also add hardened subsystems to frigates and destroyers, they have more than enough OP.
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Megas

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2019, 12:08:35 PM »

I do not mind time pressure, but fights are long enough that only big ships last long enough.  Sometimes, cruisers and even capitals run out of peak performance just from fighting a long and grueling battle.  Before, only if ships kite excessively (or player tried to solo a whole fleet) did peak performance matter.  Now, it matters often.

I notice peak performance runs out more often at smaller map sizes.  At 500 map size, more ships are out at once and everything usually dies a bit faster.  At smaller map size, it feels more like an endurance match in a fighting game.  (In my 0.9.1, I downgraded map size to 300 because that is the default and I got tired of choppy frame rate in fights featuring many carriers.)

I might put Hardened Subsystems on everything if I did not put Reinforced Bulkheads and/or Efficiency Overhaul on everything.  I still put Hardened Subsystems on some ships like Doom or Hyperion.  I always get Combat Endurance 1 for everyone that can take it because PPT is more important in 0.9.
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Thaago

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2019, 12:45:48 PM »

Ah ok, I've been at 500 size, so that explains the difference :)
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Goumindong

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2019, 01:32:38 PM »

I haven't noticed this either.

The answer is probably to just have extra frigates to cycle them in/out if you really need extra duration on them.
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Megas

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2019, 03:50:45 PM »

I haven't noticed this either.

The answer is probably to just have extra frigates to cycle them in/out if you really need extra duration on them.
If I want to attempt small ship spam late, I probably need all thirty slots, and will not be able to "have extra frigates".
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Baqar79

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2019, 09:15:13 PM »

I'm wondering if I just don't configure my ships right (I mostly configure them so that they do well in the AI's hands), but I often hit the peak performance cap on my Apogee Cruisers and even sometimes on my Paragons when taking on some stations.

I would certainly like to see an increase in peak performance time, but I can understand that perhaps because I'm a fairly passive player I miss out on the reward feedback for successfully overcoming the time pressure by playing a battle far more efficiently.

Maybe the "Hardened Subsystems" hullmod could benefit smaller ships more, ie based on ship size (125%/100%/75%/50% - Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, Capital respectively).  It would probably get me to use smaller ships more in bigger fights, but it may end up ruining others gameplay, so I don't know if it is such a good idea overall, just something I would like myself.
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Megas

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2019, 08:28:30 AM »

@ Baqar97:  It is not just you.  Endgame fights are bigger, and the AI is more cowardly than it was in versions before 0.8a.  The times are mostly unchanged since later 0.6.5, when all ships (that existed back then) got peak performance (instead of only frigates and Buffalo 2).  We also did not have battlestations until 0.9a, aside from the AI Nexus and Motherships in 0.8a.

P.S.  Skills were far stronger before 0.8a.  Before 0.7a, only the player and fleet commander had skill power.  During 0.7a, all fleets can have up to ten officers (Officer Management did not exist at first).  During 0.7a, it was possible for max skilled Onslaught to solo a hundred enemy ships without taking hull damage and within peak performance.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 08:34:16 AM by Megas »
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Schwartz

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2019, 09:33:58 AM »

Officer skills used to be ridiculous. Seeing a max level officer's Dominator do a 180° in a second when the Dominator's supposed to be a lumbering beast with an exposed drive section.

I only get into CR trouble when I take on a foe that's clearly beyond my reach. I may be able to wear down an assault 4x my size, but CR ends up biting me in the ass. Definitely put the CR skill on all your officers. The PPT is fine as it is now I think. You are supposed to get into time trouble if you overreach. And if you don't have to swap out ships in hard engagements at all, then CR may as well not exist.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 09:42:51 AM by Schwartz »
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SCC

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2019, 10:19:53 AM »

I think that it would be ideal if we could pick a modifier on PPT (and maybe other stats), so that everyone can pick the fights to be as long as they wish. That aside, I agree with Megas that fights are longer now and PPT is often insufficient for dealing with majority of the enemy ships, unless I deploy more ships than I need.

Megas

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2019, 11:08:40 AM »

What does overreach mean?  Fighting a battlestation backed up by a fleet?  Taking on an equal (or slightly greater-than) enemy force while deploying anything smaller than a cruiser, or phase ships, or anything with Degraded Subsystems?

With smaller map sizes (like the default size of 300), player can only deploy few ships at a time, if they are all big, especially if one of the ships is a Paragon.

Endgame enemy fleets can be ridiculous with several capitals and the rest full of cruisers.

As for Officers, I do not put skills in Officer Management, although that does not mean much when I cannot deploy even five ships due to map size limit.  I would like to put 1 in, but I must give up another skill to get it, and Officer Management is most likely put on the chopping block.

While Combat Endurance is nice, it should not be auto-pick because the game fails to give extra time when fights get bigger in newer releases while peak performance has not kept up.
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Morbo513

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2019, 01:35:39 PM »

My biggest problems with CR are 1: Scaling and 2: Fleet cap. I wouldn't have so much of a problem with Frigates' CR being significantly shorter than Destroyers, and Destroyers' shorter than cruisers etc, if we were able to have fleets large enough that you're able to hold significant numbers of ships in reserve without leaving deployment points unspent.
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Schwartz

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2019, 05:41:38 PM »

By overreach I mean.. you know what your fleet is able to take, and then you take on twice that. Say you have an elite-level fleet of 3 Doom, 2 Herons, an Apogee, 2 Drover, 2 Sunder and 2 Afflictors and you take on four full pirate fleets with dozens of Atlas and just as many Ventures. That was my last 'oh ***' moment where I had to redo the encounter and split the fleets.

When your fleet is at a point where they're able to hold their own even against much heavier odds, but progress simply can't be fast enough to get through everything before CR becomes a problem.

It would be interesting to see more combat videos or even combat reports from other players. I'm curious to see what pace everybody works at, and what odds they take.
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Megas

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2019, 04:54:32 AM »

Currently, I am just shy of getting a near-endgame fleet, with two capitals (Conquest and Legion), two Eagles, two or three Heron, a Mora, an Apogee, three Enforcers, a Mule, three Shrike (P), and two Condors.  Most of my ships are damaged clunkers while nearly all of the deserters' are pristine.  Nearly all bounties are 200k+.  I just fought two (separate, not together) that were somewhat stronger than my fleet (one Hegemony deserter fleet with two Legions and other beef walls, another TT deserter with Astral and several Heron and phase ships), enough that I need to resort to tricks (like form deathball near the bottom of the map) to avoid getting my ships picked off with ease and to retreat quickly once peak performance times out.  I had to full retreat twice due to peak performance timing out even on the bigger ships, just to reset the clock.

This is not twice of what I can take.  (Caveat:  I was unable to deploy everything due to map size, probably a little over half of my combat ships.)  This is a slightly superior enemy force with better (quality) ships than what I have.  (Danger rating was four stars, though.)  Also, my character was not a full combat build (because I love max Industry colony skills even more with the new limits now).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:00:07 AM by Megas »
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Zhentar

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Re: Fights are longer in 0.9.x; raise peak performance for all ships!
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2019, 10:03:39 AM »

A related problem to this is that the AI does not try to manage CR (and low CR ships can be very bad at retreating). I've had long battles with large allied fleets involved where by the end of the battle there were a dozen or more 0 CR frigates drifting about the battlefield.
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