Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[intrinsic_parity]

I think the new plasma cannon fills a really important niche, and does so well, but I also agree that changing it left another (maybe less important) niche unfilled. Perhaps a new weapon is in order? There are some other unfilled niches in medium and small energy weapons as well (particularly weapons with low flux cost that deal hard flux). In short: MOAR WEAPONS PLZ

[Megas]

I like to see a stronger medium tac laser, designed to damage ships once shields are out of the way.  Old phase beam (before it became modern phase lance) was kind of this, but costs too much OP (12) and has worse range than graviton beam.  Today, there is only graviton beam, but unless player can stack enough, plain tactical laser is better for doing the same job at less OP cost.  (Ion beam is great, but it is a flux hog and is good mostly for shield-piercing and disabling.)

I would not mind seeing a rapid-fire IR pulse laser for a high-end medium weapon.  High sustained DPS and efficient (more efficient than heavy blaster), but short range (but not too short like Ion Pulser) and high OP cost.

For small energy weapon, the high delay versions of IR Pulse Laser and/or Ion Cannon used by various fighters.  Make them cost 2 or 3 OP.  Basically the energy light mortar (that can be found in Open Market).  Mining laser is useless without tons of hullmod support and/or Advanced Countermeasures 3.  On the ballistic side, Light Mortar has become very good now (for ships with lots of mounts but poor flux stats and/or OP totals) in 0.9a thanks to 600 range upgrade.

[Thaago]

Quick note: Plasma Cannon costs MUCH less OP than an upscaled heavy blaster. Upscaled heavy blaster (to match DPS) costs 18 OP and has 1080 FPS. To bring that down to 825 FPS costs 25.5 vents, for a total of 43.5OP... Except that ships usually cannot add 25.5 vents as they are allready at max.

So compared to a heavy blaster, the plasma cannon saves 13.5 OP and has the efficiency 'baked in', not requiring the use of vents.

I think the HIL is a devastating weapon and don't want it changed at all. Its sustained, un-ignorable beam that forces shield attention is a different gameplay than other weapons.

[Vayra]

I would not mind seeing a rapid-fire IR pulse laser for a high-end medium weapon.  High sustained DPS and efficient (more efficient than heavy blaster), but short range (but not too short like Ion Pulser) and high OP cost.

Is this not a Pulse Laser 

Perhaps a Pulse Laser plus spending some OP on vents, to match the "high-end" and "high OP cost" parts

[Megas]

I think the HIL is a devastating weapon and don't want it changed at all. Its sustained, un-ignorable beam that forces shield attention is a different gameplay than other weapons.

Almost anything forces shield attention against the AI, which is why hard flux is usually a big deal.  AI will happily tank HIL like nothing, if they can.  For those that cannot, like many pirates, HIL really hurts.  During 0.8a, I considered HIL sub-optimal due to most relevant endgame threats (deserters or major factions) shield-tanking HIL without much effort.  Today, due to change of most dangerous endgame enemies (now pirates and pathers), HIL is useful because those enemies cannot shield-tank beams as well as major factions.

The one who really needs to pay attention with shield use is the playership.

Is this not a Pulse Laser 

Perhaps a Pulse Laser plus spending some OP on vents, to match the "high-end" and "high OP cost" parts

Pulse Laser is just a green IR Pulse Laser with more range and damage per shot, though the fire rate is the same.  That is not a high-end weapon, but the baseline.

What I meant is for the high-end weapon is a faster IR Pulse Laser, much like Heavy Needler is to Light Needler.  Basically an IR Pulse Laser that shoots faster.  (How much faster, I don't know.)  A weapon with high DPS and better efficiency, but with a drawback that is not high flux cost.

People try to max vents by default, so spending OP on vents is not really an upgrade, just keeping up with standard performance.

[Thaago]

I think the HIL is a devastating weapon and don't want it changed at all. Its sustained, un-ignorable beam that forces shield attention is a different gameplay than other weapons.

Almost anything forces shield attention against the AI, which is why hard flux is usually a big deal.  AI will happily tank HIL like nothing, if they can.  For those that cannot, like many pirates, HIL really hurts.  During 0.8a, I considered HIL sub-optimal due to most relevant endgame threats (deserters or major factions) shield-tanking HIL without much effort.  Today, due to change of most dangerous endgame enemies (now pirates and pathers), HIL is useful because those enemies cannot shield-tank beams as well as major factions.

The one who really needs to pay attention with shield use is the playership.

...

I find this not to be true - the AI will happily lower shields against minor damage sources when their flux is mid to high (as long as they are not very light ships like kites). HIL does not allow any flickering and rapidly punishes it - no ballistic or missile weapon does the same. Tachyon lances can sort of do similar, and while they have their place as burst damage that can overwhelm a target, I find them inferior to HILs for both armor breaking and hull damage, while costing more OP and having worse flux efficiency.

The other thing that makes HILs so good is that they can be cheaply mounted on Sunders. HIL + 2 gravitons is excellent fire support for kiting larger targets.

[Megas]

I should have wrote attacks that are not minor.  I see AI will drop shields against most lone kinetics and light beams.  (Tac laser poking is not very effective.)  If I attack with anything more than a poke, shields will (usually) be up or raised.  I do not remember if AI is still careless against hitscan attacks in 0.9a.  As for attacking, at least as a playership, if the attacker has a way to put hard flux on shield against decently shielded enemies, tachyon lance has always given faster time-to-kill over HIL for me, thanks to hitscan, burst damage, and shield penetration (for significant damage, unlike Ion Beam).  As for my AI ships, I do not know (since I have not timed or tested those).

[intrinsic_parity]

i wouldn't call 500 flux/sec for 250 dps into shields flux efficient. If you are using HIL to force shields to stay up (and the shields are actually able to stay up) you're not getting anywhere near the maximum flux efficiency they can achieve (.5 damage per flux into shields vs 2 dpf into armor).

If the HIL is actually hitting hull/armor, it is a good weapon, but as long as the enemy ship has shields up, it is essentially a massive flux dump. The question then becomes can you win the flux war without the HIL (since the HIL is actively losing the flux war if you fire it into shields). If yes, then it's a good choice, but if not, then you have spent a large portion of your available weapon space and dissipation on a weapon that is only good against hull and armor without the ability to get through to hull and armor.

If the other ship does not have great shields/flux stats, and you are already winning the flux war, then HIL is great for dishing out lots of damage and forcing fights to end. I agree with Mega's assessment. HIL is great vs poorly shielded ships and mediocre otherwise.

[AxleMC131]

What I meant is for the high-end weapon is a faster IR Pulse Laser, much like Heavy Needler is to Light Needler.  Basically an IR Pulse Laser that shoots faster.  (How much faster, I don't know.)  A weapon with high DPS and better efficiency, but with a drawback that is not high flux cost.

Dual IR Pulse Laser, perhaps?

[Schwartz]

There could always be more weapons to fill every single niche for every damage type and mount type. Do we have to have that? The only weapon that's missing right now is the "oh s***!" weapon that used to be the Plasma Cannon. What we got is an actually usable, reasonably efficient hard flux projectile weapon. Heavy Blaster's big brother. It still hits like a truck. HIL also hits like a truck.

The reason you may think HIL is bad is because you look at it as a single thing. But that's not how you fit ships effectively. If you go for a beam loadout, you take advantage of the high range and stack beams. This means it's not just a HIL on a Sunder, it's a HIL and two Gravitons. It's not just a pair of HILs on a Paragon, it's four HILs, Gravitons and a bunch of Tac Lasers. You take advantage of your own deep Flux pool to overwhelm shields with HIL firing. And it works very well. Not just against low-tech scum. I use beam ships successfully against Remnants all the time, and these shouldn't be an ideal match - but it works.

I'm not against adding new weapons. But they should be a meaningful addition. There are gaps and advantages for each weapon type for a reason.

[intrinsic_parity]

No one said HIL is bad... just that it's not very effective against ships with good shields as compared to other large energy weapons.

Saying 'my loadout worked in a situation where it's bad' doesn't mean much. There are plenty of suboptimal load outs that still get the job done, but I like to min/max a bit, so I look for the strongest thing in each situation, and then choose the thing that is strongest in the most/most common situations. 4xHIL is 2000 flux/sec for 1000 dps (into shields). You could instead use 3x plasma cannon for 2474 flux/sec and 2250 dps, or 4x auto pulse for 1000 flux/s and 6000(1200) dps burst(sustained). If you are spending a lot of time shooting into shields, there are waaaay better choices.

Weapons fill roles in your loadout/fleet and the HIL fills the anti armor role very well, but it is quite bad at shield break. You need varying amounts of these roles in different fights. In fights that needs lots of anti armor, having HIL is a strong choice. In fights that require anti shields, HIL is a bad choice. As megas said, since the scenarios where shields break is not important are much more common in the current patch, HIL has become a much better choice, because it fills the role that is required by the fights more often not because it is good in all roles.

HIL is not a generalist weapon, it is only a noticeable better choice than other weapons in specific scenarios, but since those scenarios are now very common, it becomes a decent general choice since it works well in more common situations.

If you can overwhelm a ships shields with HIL then your ship has such a massive flux stat advantage that you would have won with any weapon (but perhaps HIL lets you do it faster). The HIL isn't the strong thing in this scenario, it's the massive flux stats that win the fight. The HIL just lets you leverage that advantage to win faster. I call this bullying. Weapons like the heavy blaster also have this effect where they let you leverage your flux pool advantage to bully smaller ships very effectively, but they struggle (without help from more efficient weapons/other ships) to deal with similarly sized or larger ships equipped with more efficient weapons.

[Megas]

Of the heavy energy weapons, the one I fear most used against me is Tachyon Lance.  It is not too hard to defend against if you see it coming and do not have significant hard flux on shield.  But, if caught while shields are down or burdened with hard flux, it will hurt and likely knockout some engines.  Maybe runner-up would be twin autopulse from Paragon or other similar enemy.  If that target cannot shield-tank the burst, it will probably die or take a bunch of damage.

Older 1k plasma cannon was only somewhat intimidating during the 0.7a era when player had better skills (to mitigate plasma cannon's inefficiency), although it did not matter since Mjolnir was all-powerful back then, and big low-tech were the best ships, especially Onslaught.  (On mod ships with heavy universals up-front, Mjolnir was a no-brainer option over every heavy energy except maybe Tachyon Lance.)  During 0.8, weaker skills made the horribly inefficient plasma cannon impractical (except maybe for SO Sunder thanks to that bug that let fading plasma shots hit for hard flux.)

HIL only hits like a truck if not stopped by shields.  If stopped by shields, HIL is horribly inefficient weaksauce that cannot hit for hard flux.

Beam spam needs a force advantage to work well, like Eagle against a frigate, or Paragon against most other ships, or a fleet dedicated to it.  What I notice is a fleet that can win with beam spam, wins faster with weapons that hit for hard flux (against major factions).

Speaking of gaps, wished there was a better medium HE weapon.  Heavy Mauler used to be it, but not anymore (DPS too low for general use now, if extra range will be wasted).  Now, it is Heavy Mortar or bust.  (Before Heavy Mortar was added, it was Heavy Mauler or bust, but Heavy Mauler was rare.)

It feels lame when the best option for a medium mount is often a small weapon, like tactical laser in medium energy (when I want a beam), or (before 0.9) heavy blaster in heavy energy.

[Schwartz]

I don't disagree with y'all about downsides of beams, but it's not such an easy calculation. Range is huge and informs AI behaviour and the ability to hit a target en masse. When you outrange an enemy, venting is essentially free. Beams also have the advantage of an uniform range, whereas combinations of other weapons suffer from being an imperfect fit.

Yeah, Heavy Mauler's pretty weak now. I put Heavy Mortar on an Enforcer since it's a brawling ship anyway. Dominator gets by using medium kinetics and heavy HE. Basically, whereever possible, I find an excuse not to use medium HE. I predicted Mauler nerf was overkill and would like to see the penalty at least reduced.

[AxleMC131]

*raises hand*

I didn't say HIL was bad at all. I said it was boring. But, in hindsight, sometimes when the game is getting a little overwhelming, you need a little boring, right?

[Retry]

Isn't Tachyon Lance technically better than the HIL in terms of armor penetration?

HIL is a 500 DPS HE Beam, which means it does 2x damage to Armor, so 1000 DPS effective vs armor.  From the Starsector Wiki article on Armor, damage by beams is 1/2 the sustained DPS of the beam.  So the HIL would have an armor reduction value equivalent to a 500-damage energy projectile against armor.

Tachyon Lance's beam itself had a 1500 DPS effective burst back in 0.8a, but I haven't checked the weapon_data.csv file to see if that's the same in 0.9, but if it's similar/the same, then it's an equivalent armor reduction value to a 750-damage energy projectile against armor.

HIL wins on sustained damage vs armor easily but its superiority against hull is significantly narrower.  Also, for pure armor-killing purposes, I've found a single burst (or two, with a properly-equipped Paragon) is sufficient to shave off most or all armor at a specific point, with an exception of maybe an Onslaught, but then a second burst usually solves that issue.  Other advantages of using Tachyon Lances are that its burst beams can easily push a high-flux opponent's shields to overload, and the secondary EMP effect is also very helpful, so I usually end up using that as my armor buster even though HIL's supposed to be in that role.

I don't dislike the HIL beam per sey, but I hadn't had a good experience with it at all when I tried to outfit a Paragon with them (+ smaller beams and supporting hullmods, like Schwartz suggested).  After that, and especially after 0.9, I went to Projectile-based loadouts for Paragon in general and Tachyon Lances for large energy armor killing + general use, and never looked back.