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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.3 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs  (Read 239682 times)

Sundog

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Thanks! Glad you like it. Welcome to the forum  ;D

Sundog

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.0 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #601 on: August 10, 2020, 12:33:42 PM »

Starship Legends 1.4.2
Compatible with all previous versions

Balance adjustments and fixes for rare or minor bugs.
Full patch notes here.

Kaitol

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #602 on: August 12, 2020, 07:10:00 PM »

Would it be possible to limit weapon traits gained to types currently equipped on the ship? Asking because I have an all ballistics ship that just got a trait for less flux on energy weapons, and it only has two small omni mounts that I could change over.
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Sundog

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #603 on: August 14, 2020, 06:20:34 PM »

As a rule I try to determine whether or not traits are relevant to a ship based on permanent characteristics such as weapon mounts or built-in hullmods, otherwise the ships traits could quickly become irrelevant. What ship was this for? That trait is only supposed to apply to ships with plenty of energy weapon compatible slots.

Some older discussion on the topic:
I see that isTraitRelevantForShip checks the trait type against the hull specs (e.g. shield traits only for hulls that have shields) and considers built-in hull mods. Do you think it would be practical to consider other hull mods? At least in vanilla, I don't think there are too many that would affect traits (shield bypass, makeshift shield generator, and converted hanger) in vanilla. What do you think about considering those as well?
Well, you're well informed, aren't you  :P
I've thought about it in the past, but I've always chosen not to consider temporary hullmods when choosing traits because traits are essentially permanent in most cases. However, 1.4 will include a system for gradually removing dmod related traits from restored ships, which could easily be applied to any irrelevant traits. So, yeah, I'll probably end up doing that at some point, it's just a matter of figuring out how to do it right. Your example with shield bypass (vanilla or not) is definitely a problem I'd want to address.

Kelenius

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #604 on: August 16, 2020, 03:47:32 AM »

As a rule I try to determine whether or not traits are relevant to a ship based on permanent characteristics such as weapon mounts or built-in hullmods, otherwise the ships traits could quickly become irrelevant. What ship was this for? That trait is only supposed to apply to ships with plenty of energy weapon compatible slots.

Some older discussion on the topic:
I see that isTraitRelevantForShip checks the trait type against the hull specs (e.g. shield traits only for hulls that have shields) and considers built-in hull mods. Do you think it would be practical to consider other hull mods? At least in vanilla, I don't think there are too many that would affect traits (shield bypass, makeshift shield generator, and converted hanger) in vanilla. What do you think about considering those as well?
Well, you're well informed, aren't you  :P
I've thought about it in the past, but I've always chosen not to consider temporary hullmods when choosing traits because traits are essentially permanent in most cases. However, 1.4 will include a system for gradually removing dmod related traits from restored ships, which could easily be applied to any irrelevant traits. So, yeah, I'll probably end up doing that at some point, it's just a matter of figuring out how to do it right. Your example with shield bypass (vanilla or not) is definitely a problem I'd want to address.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the ships to become known for something they are actually doing rather than what they are capable of doing though? If you have a ship that can fit a lot of energy weapons, but doesn't have any fitted (I imagine hybrid slots could have this issue), then becoming well-known for having great energy weapons seems weird.
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Sundog

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #605 on: August 16, 2020, 08:41:12 AM »

I agree that it would make more sense in terms of realism, but not for gameplay, which I consider to be far more important. The main goal of this mod is to add variety to the game and make ships feel unique. If ship reputations were based on their variants then two ships with the same variant would end up with very similar reputations. In my opinion, the way this mod incentivises adapting your ships' loadouts to fit randomized reputations is one of it's strengths.

Hemlock

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #606 on: August 18, 2020, 03:37:19 AM »

Excellent mod, I've really enjoyed the subtle variety it adds. I've been playing it with Ruthless Sector enabled so my feedback is largely ruthless legends oriented. Overall 9/10 as a solid mod for my 'always download' list.

In terms of feedback, I would definitely agree with some of the comments on difficulty calculation being a weakness. On the player side, say you're level 30 and are largely specced into exploration / salvage / colony traits the added multiplier to your fleet calculation doesn't work well. You could have more hull-mods unlocked, but ultimately that doesn't put you above the ai, just brings you into line. Similarly if you go down the combat line, you are improving your own ship, but only your own ship. I ultimately wound up toning the player level multiplier down to something like 0.004 instead of 0.01. If you're able, it might be better to tie the fleet multipliers for the player character directly to specific skills.

As well, I think in addition to total supply as the base factor of difficulty you could consider things like raw numbers of ships, total hull value, total flux capacity of ships, total flux dissipation of ships, total number of weapons, and damage / flux output of weapons. These might let you make a more balanced difficulty calculation for the ruthless legends variant if they are something you can access.

On the ship performance side, I found that while the heavy punishment for hull damage made sense, having to do 5.2 (base) or 8 (ruthless) times as much damage to make up for each point of damage you took seemed unreasonable. The support multiplier obviously helped with that, but I wound up tuning my individual ship damage modifier to 0.375 so to make up for ruthless legend damage I only had to deal around 2-4 times as much hull damage depending on the overall battle, which I felt was more reasonable. Like on the one hand it is bad to take 90% damage, but if you're taking out two to three ships of your size in return for that, I can't see how that isn't 'good'. That said, I think my playstyle is less meta than other players - I like a big line of ships pounding away at the enemy, trading shot for shot which naturally leads to fairly high damage taken.

If its feasible, I think for ship performance you could also consider looking at things like missile hit %, amount of hard flux inflicted, number of ships overloaded, armor stripped, pd performance, and the like.
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Sundog

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #607 on: August 20, 2020, 04:16:09 PM »

Hey, welcome to the forum and thanks for the detailed feedback! I'll take it into consideration for the next major update, although I can't guarantee the changes you want, of course. However, the way player character skills affect ruthless sector's difficulty rating will certainly need to be updated to fit with the skill tree changes in the next version of Starsector.

Worachot

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #608 on: August 27, 2020, 09:07:54 AM »

can negative traits get replaced with positive traits?

and also, i cant find in the settings ini where i can increase the amount or traits the ship can have for ea fame level.
is it not possible to change it anymore?
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #609 on: August 27, 2020, 12:34:37 PM »

A couple of small balance suggestions:

The reduced flux cost for energy weapons trait is, I think, over-tuned for high-tech ships (but about right for mid-tech ships, or for modded ships that use hybrid slots.)  I'd suggest looking at the ship's largest (non-missile) slots for determining the value of it; if any of those can mount ballistic weapons, leave it at the current value; if none of them can, cut it by 20 to 25%.

By contrast, the reduced flux cost for shields trait is seriously under-tuned, even for the ships with the most expensive shields.  I haven't run the math for what would be a good value here, but it might be useful to consider scaling it so it grants what's effectively a flat cost discount based on trait level and ship size, rather than a percentage.

And, lastly, as it is right now, Dutiful Crew is a trait that I never want; I tend to assign an officer to a ship and then leave them there, so getting to the highest loyalty level a bit faster is largely a non-issue.  I'm not sure if it's reasonably doable, but I'd suggest adding an officer XP bonus to this trait - that way it gives you an incentive to cycle in officers that aren't yet max level.  It'd still eventually fall off to uselessness, but it'd take longer to get there... and in the next version of Starsector it'd become a valuable trait for the player ship just to get access to story points a bit more quickly.
(Edit: Alternatively, allow Dutiful Crew to be flagged as an irrelevant trait to be demoted and eventually removed if the current officer has max loyalty?)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 12:44:14 PM by Wyvern »
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Sundog

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #610 on: August 31, 2020, 11:24:20 AM »

Hey guys, sorry for the late reply. Was afk for a few days.

can negative traits get replaced with positive traits?
Yup, although not directly. If a ship performs well enough it will gradually lose bad traits and earn new good ones.

and also, i cant find in the settings ini where i can increase the amount or traits the ship can have for ea fame level.
is it not possible to change it anymore?
Should still be the same as always "traitsPerTier"


The reduced flux cost for energy weapons trait is, I think, over-tuned for high-tech ships (but about right for mid-tech ships, or for modded ships that use hybrid slots.)  I'd suggest looking at the ship's largest (non-missile) slots for determining the value of it; if any of those can mount ballistic weapons, leave it at the current value; if none of them can, cut it by 20 to 25%.
Yeah, reduced energy weapon flux usage is definitely a top-tier trait for most high-tech ships. Unfortunately, fine tuning it is difficult because it has an effect multiplier of 2, so I can only cut it in half without resorting to displaying decimals (which I try very hard to avoid). I'd prefer to avoid trait effects changing based on ship characteristics as well. I agree that the balance situation for the trait isn't ideal, but I'm not sure there's a good way to fix it.

By contrast, the reduced flux cost for shields trait is seriously under-tuned, even for the ships with the most expensive shields.  I haven't run the math for what would be a good value here, but it might be useful to consider scaling it so it grants what's effectively a flat cost discount based on trait level and ship size, rather than a percentage.
Hmm... yeah, I guess it does have a very weak effect. To keep things simple I think I'll just double it, making the max effect +/-40% shield upkeep for player ships and +/-96% for enemy fleets. I worry that making it a flat effect could lead to some pretty lopsided balance situations, particularly with some modded ships.

And, lastly, as it is right now, Dutiful Crew is a trait that I never want; I tend to assign an officer to a ship and then leave them there, so getting to the highest loyalty level a bit faster is largely a non-issue.  I'm not sure if it's reasonably doable, but I'd suggest adding an officer XP bonus to this trait - that way it gives you an incentive to cycle in officers that aren't yet max level.  It'd still eventually fall off to uselessness, but it'd take longer to get there... and in the next version of Starsector it'd become a valuable trait for the player ship just to get access to story points a bit more quickly.
(Edit: Alternatively, allow Dutiful Crew to be flagged as an irrelevant trait to be demoted and eventually removed if the current officer has max loyalty?)
I really like the idea of bonus officer XP for this trait. I'll look into how feasible that would be. I think the biggest problem isn't so much the trait itself, but the difficulty of balancing loyalty changes. Ideally (imo anyway) crews should only rarely be fiercely loyal to their officers, instead fluctuating somewhere close to indifference. In that case dutiful crews would basically provide a permanent bonus by allowing officers to maintain higher loyalty. If it's only a matter of time before crews reach max loyalty and never diminish, then yeah, the loyalty traits are all but pointless. Unfortunately, finding that loyalty fluctuation equilibrium is all but impossible since it depends so much on player skill and playstyle, not to mention the fact that many people don't ever want loyalties to ever reduce... I'm rambling. Anyway, as a band-aid fix I'd suggest either adjusting the battle rating settings to make it tougher to maintain good ratings or preventing new loyalty traits by setting the base chance to 0 in traits.csv (row:loyalty, column:chance). I'll give some more thought to how to improve the loyalty adjustment system. I might just end up adjusting the numbers to make it more common to lose loyalty and rarer to gain it.

Wyvern

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #611 on: August 31, 2020, 11:46:32 AM »

Hm, that loyalty thing might be an artifact of my playstyle, then?  I tend to run with a relatively small number of very-carefully-tuned variants, don't use Ruthless Sector, and I also am generally willing to save-scum some in order to figure out which ships I want to deploy.  As a result, it's been my general experience that a ship's combat rating will slowly trend upwards until it hits 100% and then stay there.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Sundog

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #612 on: August 31, 2020, 01:14:37 PM »

Likely, yeah. I suspect that you're also quite a bit better at the game than most people, due to your veterancy and tendency to be correct about math. Still, I think a lot of people end up in the same situation with max-loyalty officers and pointless loyalty traits, and I think it's important that the mod works well in that case, too, without the need to muck about in config files.

mkire

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #613 on: October 28, 2020, 09:05:01 PM »

just encountered a error, have no idea what it means.

Spoiler
9905589 [Thread-4] ERROR starship_legends.ModPlugin  - null
    starship_legends.Util.removeRepHullmodFromVariant(Util.java:232)
    starship_legends.Util.removeRepHullmodFromVariant(Util.java:241)
    starship_legends.RepRecord.updateRepHullMod(RepRecord.java:84)
    starship_legends.RepRecord.applyToShip(RepRecord.java:469)
    starship_legends.events.FamousShipBarEvent.regen(FamousShipBarEvent.java:540)
    starship_legends.events.FamousShipBarEvent.addPromptAndOption(FamousShipBarEvent.java:562)
    com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.rulecmd.missions.BarCMD.showOptions(BarCMD.java:113)
    com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.rulecmd.missions.BarCMD.execute(BarCMD.java:85)
    com.fs.starfarer.campaign.rules.super.execute(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.campaign.rules.ooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.runScript(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.rulecmd.FireBest.applyRule(FireBest.java:98)
    com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.rulecmd.FireBest.execute(FireBest.java:47)
    com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.rulecmd.FireBest.fire(FireBest.java:53)
    com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.RuleBasedInteractionDialogPluginImpl.fireBes t(RuleBasedInteractionDialogPluginImpl.java:176)
    com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.RuleBasedInteractionDialogPluginImpl.optionS elected(RuleBasedInteractionDialogPluginImpl.java:208)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.newui.Objectsuper$1.o00000(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.newui.super.actionPerformed(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.newnew.buttonPressed(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.I.?00000(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.I.processInput(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.newnew.processInputImpl(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.o00OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.processInput(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.v.dispatchEventsToChildren(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.v.processInputImpl(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.newui.super.processInputImpl(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.o00OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.processInput(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.v.dispatchEventsToChildren(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.v.processInputImpl(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.N.processInputImpl(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.newui.Objectsuper.processInputImpl(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.o00OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.processInput(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.v.dispatchEventsToChildren(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.v.processInputImpl(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.ui.o00OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.processInput(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignState.processInput(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.BaseGameState.traverse(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
    com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
    java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
[close]
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Sundog

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.4.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #614 on: October 28, 2020, 09:57:39 PM »

Thanks for the report! I'm surprised it's possible for that kind of crash to occur. Not sure what circumstances could lead to that. Regardless, I'll make sure to fix this up soon. Sorry for the trouble!
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