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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: [0.97a] Starship Legends 2.5.2 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs  (Read 769064 times)

Lionion

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.1.13 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #210 on: August 05, 2019, 08:56:50 PM »

It's probably not as broken as you think considering that you need either a shitload of command points (with a command center hullmod) to farm damage with a fleet or a lot of supplies when you are soloing, and that enemy ai generally decides to retreat if they see no way to win (i.e. player constantly dunking on the fighers/drones and gimping their regen).

If anything right now the mod heavily rewards flankers and damage dealers that it becomes almost comical after a certain point that almost all your destroyers have 80+ rating whereas your Onslaught capital ship has sub 40% because of all the armor/hull tanking it has to do.

Considering a loyalty mechanic is already in place and there are historical examples of ships that survive insane structural damage that they become famous for it, I would even argue surviving combat with hull damage should count towards the combat rating.

To offset the positive rating bloat, maybe take into consideration the number of system malfunctions, the time ships spend in reduced CR to offset it?
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Sundog

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.1.13 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #211 on: August 05, 2019, 09:54:08 PM »

Hey, thanks for the feedback and welcome to the community!

So my concerns about awarding rating for support damage aren't about realism or avoiding rating bloat so much as avoiding perverse incentives. For example, if ships gained rating for taking structural damage, then many people would intentionally damage their own ships. I'm open to ideas for leveling the playing field for ships that aren't damage dealers, but it's out of the question to award rating for anything that would encourage people to prolong battles for the sake of rating. Hull damage works because it's a finite resource that you want to strip away from your opponent as quickly as possible whether you're doing it to improve rating or just to win the battle.

Sundog

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.1.13 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #212 on: August 08, 2019, 06:52:44 PM »

Starship Legends 1.2.0

Added 12 new traits:
   Battle Scarred / Scrap Heap - Adjusted effects from lasting damage (d-mods). Only earned after ship recovery
   Skilled/Inept Survey Team - Further reduces supplies required for surveys. Only for ships with built-in surveying equipment
   Blockade Runner - Increases speed boost at zero flux. Only for ships with built-in shielded cargo holds
   Cool/Hot-running Drive Stabilizer - Adjusts sensor profile by quite a bit. Only for ships with built-in drive field stabilizers (like the Ox)
   Comm Support - CP recovery while deployed. Only for civilian-grade ships
   Nav Support - Speed bonus for all ships while deployed. Only for civilian-grade ships
   ECM Support - ECM rating bonus while deployed. Only for civilian-grade ships
   Cursed - Spontaneous malfunction chance. Only earned after ship recovery
   Phase-mad Crew - Malfunction chance while phased. Only earned after ship recovery by ships with built-in phase fields
Added console commands: AddTrait, SetLoyalty, AdjustTraits, ClearRep, ListTraitEffects, SetRating, SetTraitEffectMult, and List traits
Added supplimentary details to battle reports, including lists of enemy ships destroyed and routed
Added a section to reputation hullmod tooltips that shows the officers with the most loyalty (only when no officer is assigned)
Added a new setting for easily changing the potency of trait effects: "globalEffectMult"
Added an alternative settings file to be used only when ruthless sector is active: RUTHLESS_STARSHIP_LEGENDS_OPTIONS.ini
Added an error pop-up when used with old versions of Starsector
Added a file for adjusting the percent of damage taken that is counted for rating calculation: "\sun_sl\data\hull_regen_ships.csv"
   This is primarily for ships that regenerate hull damage, and currently only applies to the Excelsior and Royco (from ship and weapon pack), with a 50% reduction
   Please let me know of any other ships that regenerate hull and should be adjusted
Fixed battle reports not being sorted by date and time
Fixed rating colum of battle reports being too narrow at very low resolutions
Fixed starship legends calculating battle difficulty when ruthless sector reports a battle difficulty of 0% due to reload penalties
Changed logic for trait prominance changes to prevent insignificant swapping of trait positions
Changed battle report notification for trait prominance changes to mention both traits that swapped places
Changed default rating calculation to exclude battle difficulty
Changed: ships deployed only to mop up fleeing enemies are again counted as deployed for the battle
Changed ship strength calculation to be overriden by ruthless sector if it is also active
Changed traits that affect crew losses to also apply to losses taken by fighters
Changed XP required to guarantee new traits. It has been lowered for all tiers:
   Notable          160k -> 80k
   Well Known     640k -> 400k
   Famous          2560k -> 2000k
   Legendary      10240k -> 10000k

Sarissofoi

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.1.13 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #213 on: August 09, 2019, 10:35:37 AM »

Hello
Very interesting mod you made,sir
So my concerns about awarding rating for support damage aren't about realism or avoiding rating bloat so much as avoiding perverse incentives. For example, if ships gained rating for taking structural damage, then many people would intentionally damage their own ships. I'm open to ideas for leveling the playing field for ships that aren't damage dealers, but it's out of the question to award rating for anything that would encourage people to prolong battles for the sake of rating. Hull damage works because it's a finite resource that you want to strip away from your opponent as quickly as possible whether you're doing it to improve rating or just to win the battle.
To be honest this type of players would just play with no penalties option or abuse the game in either way. I don't see the point to try to go against them at the expense of legit players.
Some bonus rating for PD and reduced penalty for low tech ships(as they suppose to tank with armor) should be great.
Maybe use lost crew as some sort of reducing rating thing. I mean if your crew get shoot to bits but nobody died then its more notable than ship that vent half the crew after some ricochet hit it.

Sundog

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.2.0 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #214 on: August 09, 2019, 04:01:48 PM »

Hello
Very interesting mod you made,sir
Hi! Thanks for your interest

To be honest this type of players would just play with no penalties option or abuse the game in either way.
I don't think that's the case. These aren't exploits we're talking about, just mechanics that reward annoying behavior. Yes, some players limit themselves with self-imposed rules in order to avoid annoying game mechanics. I do it all the time. That doesn't mean games should have annoying mechanics.

I'll give some more thought to making rating calculations more fair to combat support ships in a way that doesn't introduce perverse incentives, but I can't promise results.

Lionion

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.2.0 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #215 on: August 10, 2019, 12:44:38 AM »

As long as there is a coherent set of rules, there will always be a way to abuse, exploit, skirt around those rules. Even at the current state of the mod, you can arguably micromanage to herd enemy ships so your flagship can get all of the kills. Wouldn't this arguably be the exact same thing with damage dealt, not damage absorbed?
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Zalpha

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.2.0 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #216 on: August 10, 2019, 04:45:17 AM »

I am just throwing a random thought out there but is there a way you could be reward based on trade done? Not sure how or what the perk would be but I think being a merchant captain sounds nice. I do not know how but so far I have been able to go hours in my new game without getting into any combat and have been making good trades along the way and picking up good ships too. First time I have experienced that and it has been fun but my captains haven't gotten any experience because of it. So I am the only one leveling.

I love the mod and am waiting for the stable version to come out before updating again. Thanks for your continued work and effort into it.
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Erythion

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.2.0 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #217 on: August 10, 2019, 06:29:35 AM »

I fought multiple skirmishes in one battle against a raid, but only the last skirmish gets a report...
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Sinigr

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.2.0 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #218 on: August 10, 2019, 02:27:11 PM »

Do you undestand that hull damage system is stupid? It makes ships with bad shields or tactics without using shields unsuitable. And here is always some risk to take some hull damage to make fight faster, but we control it to prevent death. You are mad man, i think.

ECM Support - ECM rating bonus while deployed. Only for civilian-grade ships
You suggest deploy some colossus into battle? Omg, you are really mad man.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 02:39:42 PM by Sinigr »
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"officerMaxLevel":29,
"officerAIMax":36,
"maxOfficersInAIFleet":36
"tier1StationOfficerLevel":29,
"tier2StationOfficerLevel":29,
"tier3StationOfficerLevel":29,
Try to hunt it! ;)
https://i.imgur.com/gXIAgGy.png

Sundog

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.2.0 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #219 on: August 10, 2019, 03:46:11 PM »

On fighter damage contributing to battle rating
After giving this quite a bit of thought, I think I've come up with a way to make this work without causing any gameplay problems. The only issue is that it'll probably take me a full day of work to get working properly, so I might not be able to add it any time soon.

As long as there is a coherent set of rules, there will always be a way to abuse, exploit, skirt around those rules. Even at the current state of the mod, you can arguably micromanage to herd enemy ships so your flagship can get all of the kills.
You're right about every set of rules being abusable to some degree, and you're right that the current rating system is somewhat abusable. The difference is in how abusable the rules are. The current rating rules do very little to encourage bizarre or annoying gameplay, but a lot of the suggestions I get for adjusting the rules would be downright broken.

Wouldn't this arguably be the exact same thing with damage dealt, not damage absorbed?
Not sure what you mean by this. Would you mind clarifying?

I am just throwing a random thought out there but is there a way you could be reward based on trade done?
I really like the idea of civilian ships earning logistical traits for taking part in non-combat activities. I've added this to my list and I'll see what I can do!
(Also: you're missing out on the best part of the game!)

I love the mod and am waiting for the stable version to come out before updating again. Thanks for your continued work and effort into it.
Thanks! I'm glad you like it  ;D
As for stability: No one has reported any bugs to me yet, but the beta has only been out for two days, so there's still a decent chance there are a few well-hidden ones.

I fought multiple skirmishes in one battle against a raid, but only the last skirmish gets a report...
Yup. You get one battle report for each battle, no matter how many engagements the battle consists of. The report adds up the data for all of the engagements.

Do you undestand that hull damage system is stupid?
I'm afraid I don't, but you're certainly welcome to attempt to enlighten me. A word to the wise though: if you want to change my mind about something, you're better off being civil.

ECM Support - ECM rating bonus while deployed. Only for civilian-grade ships
You suggest deploy some colossus into battle? Omg, you are really mad man.
The support traits are a bit of an experimental feature, for sure, but yes, I really am hoping those traits will encourage people to deploy civilian ships into battle for the sake of the bonuses they can provide. Hopefully they'll add an interesting twist. We'll see!  :)

Sarissofoi

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.2.0 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #220 on: August 12, 2019, 09:31:25 AM »

What about making PD damage or even shield damage secondary(or tertiary) aspect with capped values? So they can effect to some point but at much lesser rate?

Also what about crew losses? Could it also affect somewhat rating?

Sundog

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.2.0 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #221 on: August 12, 2019, 10:07:02 AM »

What about making PD damage or even shield damage secondary(or tertiary) aspect with capped values? So they can effect to some point but at much lesser rate?
Well, the idea I have in mind for PD damage (against fighters) would have a sort of cap, although it might be too unconventional to actually call it that. A straightforward cap on support damage was one of the first things I originally considered, but it does very little to mitigate the original problem. Yes, it would discourage people from infinitely farming damage against fighters, but they would still want to make sure to hit the cap. That's not such a big deal if the cap is low, but with a low cap it would fail to adequately reward dedicated PD ships.

Also what about crew losses? Could it also affect somewhat rating?
Crew loss is based almost entirely on the hull damage a ship takes. The main difference between the two (mechanically) is that crew losses are easier to manipulate with skills and hullmods (a bad thing imo), and that carriers would be at a massive disadvantage due to how often they lose crew from fighter losses (a very bad thing imo).

Zalpha

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.2.0 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #222 on: August 12, 2019, 11:12:20 AM »

I really like the idea of trying to encourage civilian ship use as I avoid them like the plague when modded ships do their job and offer more. If this mod offered perks targeted towards them specifically that would be great. I am not sure how anything works (so ignore this if I am wrong or way off) but maybe there could be benefits for captains who that tag along with the fleet but not get deployed into battle and for those that do get deployed into battle. Not sure what they would be but you get the idea that there would be a difference between a tag along captain (pure utility ship) and a captain in a deployed civilian re-fitted into a combat vessel. Just a thought, not sure of how stuff works and all that.
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JDCollie

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.2.0 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #223 on: August 12, 2019, 11:33:55 PM »

Do you undestand that hull damage system is stupid? It makes ships with bad shields or tactics without using shields unsuitable. And here is always some risk to take some hull damage to make fight faster, but we control it to prevent death. You are mad man, i think.
I disagree. The idea behind the mod is the reputation the ships develop among the people who crew them. Ships that regularly take hull damage and therefore lose crew are going develop reputations of being ill-fated even if they are statistically successful. And anyway ships with bad shields generally have good armor. Ships with bad armor generally have good shields. Ships that have neither are either compensated in another way such as mobility or standoff firepower, or are bad ships. (At least for combat anyway.)  As for tactics, well, a ship that has good shields/armor, but refuses to use them because of the tactics of the captain? Well, I don't think it's unreasonable to think the crew wouldn't be particularly loyal.

Granted, this is all from an immersion perspective. From a gameplay one, look at the formula. So long as the fleet you deploy is roughly equal to the one you face, and your ship inflicts more than it's own deployment cost in hull damage, you will see good combat ratings. I don't mean to be critical, but if ships using your "unshielded tactics" are unable to pull a good rating, then perhaps they actually aren't preforming as solidly as you believe they are?
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Lionion

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Re: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.2.0 - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #224 on: August 13, 2019, 03:34:27 AM »

It's impossible not to take hull damage if you armor tank. Armor damage mitigation isn't 100% and HE weapons chew through armor with ease. You are almost certainly bound to lose some hull unless you are an Alpha AI yourself. Loss of hull is loss of CR, hence the mod's bias towards fast and agile destroyers with medium or large weapon mounts.
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