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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Painting the Stars (02/07/20)

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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Starship Legends 1.3.14 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs  (Read 150782 times)

Sundog

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2019, 02:13:09 PM »

Fixed a crash caused by an incompatibility with Ship/Weapon Pack (my fault)
Fixed an error that caused the error reporting system to fail
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 12:45:23 PM by Sundog »
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Dal

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2019, 03:43:40 PM »

I agree with the hull damage concerns. I tend to fly my ships to their last weld in combat but don't typically actually lose them. Maybe the metric could be number of crew casualties? Or maybe CR degradation in combat, representing over-working?

Also, grats on getting mentioned on Alex's twitter.
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2019, 04:29:39 PM »

I agree with the hull damage concerns. I tend to fly my ships to their last weld in combat but don't typically actually lose them. Maybe the metric could be number of crew casualties? Or maybe CR degradation in combat, representing over-working?

Also, grats on getting mentioned on Alex's twitter.

I always thought hull damage caused crew casualties. Admittedly, I never checked. But yes, I do the same thing.
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Sundog

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2019, 06:08:38 PM »

Are these applied to AI fleets in any way though? I could see this working hand in hand with bounties, facing some legendary fleets and such.
Currently reputations only apply to player-owned ships, and for the most part that won't change. The problem with NPC ships having traits is that there would be no good way to show those traits to the player, which would lead to random and unpredictable variations in the strength of enemy ships.

However, if I can figure out a good way to do it, I would like to make it so that the flagships of bounty fleets have traits sometimes. I would have to be able to list the traits in the intel screen though, so it might not be feasible.

I haven't yet fiddled around with the mod, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think it'd be interesting to have certain good traits associated with getting battle damage (but surviving) and certain bad traits associated with getting through unscathed.
This could make sense thematically and I do think it could be interesting, but I wouldn't want to encourage players to get their ships damaged in the hopes of getting certain traits. I think players should be rewarded for playing effectively, not ineffectively.

I agree with the hull damage concerns. I tend to fly my ships to their last weld in combat but don't typically actually lose them. Maybe the metric could be number of crew casualties? Or maybe CR degradation in combat, representing over-working?
Using hull damage as the primary metric isn't perfect, but I still think it's the best one. I think the complications for things like crew losses or CR are worse. I think the best way to go about it is to make adjustments based on things like how difficult the battle was (which is accounted for in the current version) and how much damage the ship dealt (which I'll probably add soon).

in my experience, any ship that relies on armor as its primary defense (i.e. the entire low-tech line-up) will usually take a small-to-moderate amount of hull damage in the course of a normal battle.
I agree that low-tech style ships are more likely to take some hull damage, but in my experience you can prevent them from taking massive damage more reliably than high-tech ships. I think the real problem is tanky vs squishy ships. I think glass cannons like Sunders should be able to compensate for taking some hull damage by dealing hull damage.

And then you get into the industry fleet-of-clunkers playstyle where you expect your ships to get battered in combat...
I agree that starship legends could cause gameplay problems for this playstyle, but thematically I think it fits perfectly. The crewmen of a fleet like that would hate their ships, captains, and lives, and It makes sense that rust-buckets would have bad reputations. From a gameplay perspective I don't think the commonality of bad traits would be too bad due to how disposable ships are in a fleet like that. High ship turn-over means more bad traits, but it also means more ships (with different reputations) to choose from.

Personally, I already skew towards preferring high-tech shield-based ships just because I don't like taking crew casualties.  I don't need another thing that encourages that same playstyle.
Same. Overall, I do think that high-tech ships are generally the most powerful, but I don't want to try to compensate for imbalances in vanilla.

I'd suggest that there be a way to wipe the slate clean and start over - maybe treating the reputation mod as a d-mod that'll get removed (and then re-applied clean) after a full shipyard restoration of the hull?
I would personally prefer for reputations to persist through restorations so that it's possible to restore a ship with a reputation you like. However, I am considering adding an opt-in option to make it so that ships in storage gradually lose their traits.

Flunky

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2019, 07:19:12 PM »

I haven't yet fiddled around with the mod, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think it'd be interesting to have certain good traits associated with getting battle damage (but surviving) and certain bad traits associated with getting through unscathed.
This could make sense thematically and I do think it could be interesting, but I wouldn't want to encourage players to get their ships damaged in the hopes of getting certain traits. I think players should be rewarded for playing effectively, not ineffectively.

Fair point. And, having now played with it a little bit, seems to be enough of a chance to get negatives when doing fine (and vice versa) that one can get the story of a complacent or determined crew even if that's not the actual mechanic. Works for me.

Additionally, having looked at the options and thinking about others' comments: would it be possible to make it a three point chance of malus plot rather than the two currently? E.g. instead of "chanceOfMalusAtNoHullLost" and "chanceOfMalusAtHalfHullLost", it could be a 0->33->66 sort of thing or the like? Having the chance get more severe as the ship gets closer to being disabled might offset alleviate the low/high-tech disparity, given their relative armor and hull levels.

Also, because I forgot to say this the first time: great mod, thanks! Even with just a bit of playing I'm finding little stories coming together with this.
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Tei

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2019, 08:34:04 PM »

So judging from this thread and me trying out this mod, Hull damage makes your crew hate you. Currently Im piloting my dominator and it can take hits, but even though I more or less cut a bloody path through an enemy fleet and punching far above my weight the ships crew absolutely hates me.

Maybe have it so that the penalties/traits can get nullified after battle depending on how much damage you deal in return or how many kills you get during battle.

Perhaps have a "Blood Lust" or "Extreme Aggression" trait that makes your crew hating you worth it (and turning your currently piloted ship into a go hard, go fast or die trying sort of vessel.)
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Zhentar

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2019, 08:51:38 PM »

with hull damage taken in battle being the primary factor.

Are you sure about the in battle part? Because my civilian vessels are rapidly accumulating traits while traveling through hyperspace storms... one of my Ox tugs has rickety hardpoints and a worn-out targeting computer now. I know the description says they can be superstitions but that's a bit extreme...

Other things I've noticed:
  • You can get the same trait twice
  • You can get a trait and it's directly opposing trait at the same time
  • Restoring at a shipyard wipes the reputation
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Sundog

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2019, 09:28:04 PM »

New Known Issues
  • Restoring a ship will remove it's reputation hullmod until it has any new reputation change (including crew opinions of officers), at which point all previous traits will be restored.
  • It's possible to get the same type of trait. Starship legends prevents ships from getting traits they already have, but not ones that they will have.

@Zhentar: Hull damage doesn't matter for civilian ships that aren't deployed. Their chance of getting a negative trait is simply 50%. The other things are bugs that have recently been reported to me. I just came here to let people know about them until I can get a fix out, but thanks for telling me about them!

@Tei, Flunky: Thanks for the feedback, guys! I'll reply soon, but for now I want to focus on getting a patch out.

Sundog

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2019, 11:29:16 PM »

  • Duplicate trait types should no longer be possible, and existing duplicates (the newest ones) should be removed upon loading a game
  • Average time between reputation changes is now reduced based on the number of pending changes
  • Restoring a ship will still remove reputation hullmods, unfortunately, but they are now restored as soon as you leave the market (working on a better fix for this)
  • Effect on crew casualties from 'Safe' and 'Death Trap' traits has been reduced by 40%
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 12:45:39 PM by Sundog »
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Shad

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2019, 01:19:50 AM »

Small typo: "Volitile Flux Core"

I do love the mod! But before specific feedback I want to ask, what the long term goal of the mod. Is it to make the player look to build ther "perfect" starship, with no critical nigative traits? Or is the goal to give ships variety by giving ships both positive and negative traits?
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dk1332

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2019, 01:55:09 AM »

Looks good, gonna try this mod after my current campaign.
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Nicke535

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2019, 02:11:57 AM »

Amazing work so far, Sundog.

Minor feature suggestion: changed hullmod description/"trait-up" description for ships with zero crew capacity. Mechanically it still works, but an automated ship with reference to crew can be an odd inconsistency.

SCC

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2019, 04:08:09 AM »

in my experience, any ship that relies on armor as its primary defense (i.e. the entire low-tech line-up) will usually take a small-to-moderate amount of hull damage in the course of a normal battle.
I agree that low-tech style ships are more likely to take some hull damage, but in my experience you can prevent them from taking massive damage more reliably than high-tech ships. I think the real problem is tanky vs squishy ships. I think glass cannons like Sunders should be able to compensate for taking some hull damage by dealing hull damage.

Personally, I already skew towards preferring high-tech shield-based ships just because I don't like taking crew casualties.  I don't need another thing that encourages that same playstyle.
Same. Overall, I do think that high-tech ships are generally the most powerful, but I don't want to try to compensate for imbalances in vanilla.
Would it be possible to have a modifier that changes the chances for negative traits either on tech-level or deviation from average size health pool basis?

The thing about high-tech ships is that they're supposed to be less numerous and more individually powerful, which is reflected in their logistical footprint, at least maintenance-wise.

YuiTheModder

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2019, 09:27:56 AM »

Does this mod add the ability for enemy captains and their fleets/ships to also have a reputation and custom ship hullmods?

I would love that.
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Tei

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Re: Starship Legends - Personality for Your Ships and Crew
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2019, 10:06:40 AM »

New Known Issues
  • Restoring a ship will remove it's reputation hullmod until it has any new reputation change (including crew opinions of officers), at which point all previous traits will be restored.
  • It's possible to get the same type of trait. Starship legends prevents ships from getting traits they already have, but not ones that they will have.

@Zhentar: Hull damage doesn't matter for civilian ships that aren't deployed. Their chance of getting a negative trait is simply 50%. The other things are bugs that have recently been reported to me. I just came here to let people know about them until I can get a fix out, but thanks for telling me about them!

@Tei, Flunky: Thanks for the feedback, guys! I'll reply soon, but for now I want to focus on getting a patch out.

Speaking of which, what exactly influences what traits you get? My dominator flagship has reduced vent rates, is it because I vent so much in battle?

Though its totally believable to say that because I vent so much the machines responsible for ship venting is starting to get worn out. But at the same it can be handwaved that because I command the cre to vent so often that the crew is much more profficient and knowledgeable of the procedure for venting thus venting is more optimized.

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