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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Painting the Stars (02/07/20); Updated the Forum Rules and Guidelines (02/29/20)

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Author Topic: Hyperspace Nebula  (Read 3196 times)

SCC

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2019, 03:02:32 PM »

I wish that the storms knocked bigger fleets off course less. They have more mass and more momentum, but are actually more affected by the storms, because they have less acceleration and this seems to be the main factor determining how severe the pinball effect is.

IronBorn

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2019, 03:03:51 PM »

It would be nice to be able to change the density and frequency of hyperspace storms when generating a new game. I find them mostly a nuisance, especially since I only have time to play casually these days. If I want to play, I have to start several new games hoping for a more clean hyperspace.
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Zomble

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2019, 05:06:22 PM »

this is how you do be at a hyperspace storm when you do just starting the game and not undetstand them:


this is how you are at a hyperspace storm when you have understand the emergency burn button and timing where you impact the storm cell as it light:


i like it  ;D be the second one cat

but you can always fly around them if you have many big ships and not efficiency overhaul or solar shielding and not want to take damage

maybe there could be more corridor in the c,oud, that it my only suggestion

You completely missed my point by a mile. I'm pretty sure I made my point clear when I said it's immersive breaking and I don't want to be a nob, however, let me spell it out for anyone who misses my point about the functionality of the mechanic:

I T   M A K E S   N O   S E N S E

Why would a space ship be flung LIGHTYEARS away by what appears to be a storm. You may be able to justify it in your head, but to me I just cannot believe how it would ever even be remotely possible for such a thing to happen even within a sci-fi universe. It would be like if Gandalf just stripped naked and started a porno for 10 mins in LOTR, it does not fit. It completely ruins any sort of immersion I have in the game. Just as many people don't want mods that deter from the vanilla theme too much (examples such as minecraft ships or star trek lore shoehorned into starsector's universe).

I'm not asking for complete realism as on a realistic scale as lot of content doesn't make sense and frankly the game would no longer really be a game worth playing if it tried to be completely realistic (or even a game that functions). But when the game asks me to perform mental gymnastics as to realistically suspend my disbelief then something is wrong in my humble opinion.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 05:49:26 PM by Zomble »
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Histidine

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2019, 05:42:51 PM »

I've stopped going into storms in my current playthrough because they cost too many supplies with my current fleet size. Maybe I shouldn't insist on having all my officers be in ships, half of which are cruisers and one a capital, but if I swapped them with smaller ships out of storage I'd have to reassign all my officers.
Maybe I should see if auto assign give smart results (carrier officers on carriers, and ideally officers with Missile Specialization on ships with missiles).

You completely missed my point by a mile. I'm pretty sure I made my point clear when I said it's immersive breaking and I don't want to be a nob, however, let me spell it out for anyone who misses my point about the functionality of the mechanic:

I T   M A K E S   N O   S E N S E

Why would a space ship be flung LIGHTYEARS away by what appears to be a storm. You may be able to justify it in your head, but to me I just cannot believe how it would ever even be remotely possible for such a thing to happen even within a sci-fi universe. It completely ruins any sort of immersion I have in the game. Just as many people don't want mods that deter from the vanilla theme too much (examples such as minecraft ships or star trek lore shoehorned into starsector's universe).

Attempt-to-be-helpful response:
Spoiler
It's the hyperspace equivalent of a storm at sea for a sailing ship. It exerts a force on the fleet's drive bubble and blows it away from the storm region. (If you like, you can insert terms like "Casimir effect" and "spacetime curvature" somewhere in there to make it sound more Sciencey and Authentic)
The toss distance is "light years" because everything in hyperspace is light years in normal space. Assuming the distance:screen pixel ratio involved between two locations in hyper is the same as that in normal space, fleets don't move more than a dozen or so light minutes per toss within the shared reference frame, which is still a good distance in a way but far, far from light years.

The implementation of hyper travel in SS is almost purely fictitious anyway, one can make up almost any property for it.
[close]

Maximally snarky response:
Spoiler
Completely fictitious system of FTL travel, with arbitrary design elements like "fleets can only enter and leave at certain points because of Reasons", "properties of hyperspace are not uniform across its surface in a specific way involving specific defined, constant regions" and "you need antimatter fuel to even move but otherwise almost everything works the same as it does in normal space": Immersion

Completely fictitious system of FTL travel, with arbitrary design elements like "fleets can only enter and leave at certain points because of Reasons", "properties of hyperspace are not uniform across its surface in a specific way involving specific defined, constant regions" and "you need antimatter fuel to even move but otherwise almost everything works the same as it does in normal space", plus "certain regions of hyperspace have storms that will damage ships and knock them far off course": No immersion
[close]
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 05:46:31 PM by Histidine »
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Zomble

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2019, 06:10:06 PM »

I was editing my post while you were replying, feels bad.

Anyway, there is knocking a ship off course, and then there is speed hacking. Combining them isn't believable even in the "we don't understand how it works therefore all logic disappears and your suspension of disbelief is infinite".

It is reasonable to expect players to suspend their disbelief, I do not argue that. But it's not a never ending void. There is a point where it just gets silly. When It looks silly, it probably is silly.

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Mr. Nobody

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2019, 01:03:30 AM »

If i may add my 2 cents, i'd like some more variety of stuff in hyperspace, maybe you have regions that are more subject to storms, example "clear" (the normal hyperspace with no storm), "misty" (where the storms are quite mild) and "dense" (the thicc cloud we know and love).
Also dunno, streams or currents where the hyperspace is calm enough to not bother the fleet but imparts a speed in its direction.
Tl;dr moar variety pl0x
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On the left half of the Bell curve

Goumindong

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2019, 11:42:53 AM »

Just going to pop in and say i really like the current implementation. It forces you to find ways around and to plan your trips according to what deep hyperspace looks like... or to have excess fuel and supplies for e-burning. I just wish you could turn the staracape off in the intel screen so that you didnt have to tab to the map to see the hyperspace lanes.

Also if there was time it would be great to modify the AI to take hyperspace lanes rather than flying directly.  If hyperspace lanes could be generated at galaxy creation that could make it feasible.

Possible method

1) generate a set of points in space around the core. Two or three circles with fewer points per ly as you go out.
2) draw lines between those points by connecting each one to the closest point on the next centermost circle. This becomes the hyperspace lane.
3) fill in non-hyperspace lanes with deep hyperspace
4) carve out deep hyperspace around clusters

Then when traveling to a non-core world the AI would navigate to the closest hyperspace point to themselves, then to the hyperspace point closest to the star theyre going to and then to the star itself.
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xor0

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2019, 04:50:25 AM »

Quote
maybe there could be more corridor in the c,oud, that it my only suggestion

God no please don't nerf the game to please the whiny pinheads, they will keep whining til it is a point-and-click adventure.

The hyperspace map shows the cloud densities, part of the game is to plan your route around them. In the past they were a challenge, you had to account for them. Now, the first system you stop off at you can fill up with fuel and supplies til it's coming out your ears.
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Megas

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2019, 06:03:44 AM »

As for not making sense.  If this was in space, there probably should not be space terrain, just... space, mostly.  But in Alex's hyperspace (which is not normal space with stars and planets), it is in an alien dimension and in an alien environment that does not need to make sense.

And since Starsector is a game, gamist elements to make the game play smoothly are justified.

The hyperspace map shows the cloud densities, part of the game is to plan your route around them. In the past they were a challenge, you had to account for them. Now, the first system you stop off at you can fill up with fuel and supplies til it's coming out your ears.
The default one does not show precise location of nebula, while the other one that shows where they are shows too much and blots out much of the map in a blue haze.
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Zomble

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2019, 12:43:03 PM »

Quote
maybe there could be more corridor in the c,oud, that it my only suggestion

God no please don't nerf the game to please the whiny pinheads, they will keep whining til it is a point-and-click adventure.

The hyperspace map shows the cloud densities, part of the game is to plan your route around them. In the past they were a challenge, you had to account for them. Now, the first system you stop off at you can fill up with fuel and supplies til it's coming out your ears.

Whining that someone is whining is see. Very classy.

Anyway, your point about "finding your way around" is moot when most of the map is covered in nebula to the point where it's pointless to try finding your way around most of the time. It seems to me like you may be thinking I want the game to be easier when I have not stated anything of the sort.

As for not making sense.  If this was in space, there probably should not be space terrain, just... space, mostly.  But in Alex's hyperspace (which is not normal space with stars and planets), it is in an alien dimension and in an alien environment that does not need to make sense.

And since Starsector is a game, gamist elements to make the game play smoothly are justified.

The hyperspace map shows the cloud densities, part of the game is to plan your route around them. In the past they were a challenge, you had to account for them. Now, the first system you stop off at you can fill up with fuel and supplies til it's coming out your ears.
The default one does not show precise location of nebula, while the other one that shows where they are shows too much and blots out much of the map in a blue haze.

I have no idea what you are talking about with your first paragraph.

There are better ways to make nebula work depending on its desired role in the game. Even from a strictly gameplay point of view it doesn't seem to make sense. It doesn't make anyone consider going around due to it's density, and if it wasn't dense players would still just yolo it. If the nebula storms are there purely to speed boost players then there are far better methods of increasing travel time which doesn't make you instantly think of pinball. One can only come to the logical conclusion that it is a poor mechanic.

The reason why the map is covered in a blue haze is because there is far too much of it, but it still does not show all of the nebula which illustrates just how much there is.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 01:03:37 PM by Zomble »
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Megas

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2019, 02:12:43 PM »

Quote
I have no idea what you are talking about with your first paragraph.
The point was since hyperspace is an imaginary dimension (or an alien dimension if one wants to try to immerse in it), there is no obligation to make as much sense as normal reality (for trying to be immersed in it).  Maybe the gameplay in hyperspace stinks, and it does not matter if it makes sense or not.  It can make perfect sense (or not) and still be a bad mechanic.

Yes, wall clouds are common, and sometimes, going around clouds is not a practical option.  I cannot argue with that.
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Zomble

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2019, 06:21:48 PM »

Some imaginations are more nonsensical than others. Just look at Japanese adverts for example.
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Goumindong

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2019, 08:16:45 PM »

I go around and take the space lanes all the time when traveling. So its definitely doing its job for me
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Zomble

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Re: Hyperspace Nebula
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2019, 08:21:52 PM »

I go around and take the space lanes all the time when traveling. So its definitely doing its job for me

You have lanes in your universes? Lucky you.

I never seem to get any sort of path ways. Hell a lot of the time either entire sections of the map are cut off or blocks of stars are engulfed by nebula.
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