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Author Topic: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.  (Read 6370 times)

Takion Kasukedo

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Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« on: February 05, 2019, 10:46:49 PM »

Earlier today I, as well as someone else, had found out that the Doom's mines, as well as some projectiles (reaper, maybe) have full damage on the edge of the radius of their mines, meaning you could be out of what should be the closest damage radius, but still take full damage from them, as the explosion radius doesn't seem to match the visual radius of the explosion.

A viable solution to this would be to have the explosive damage radius somewhat match the visible explosive radius of the projectile, mines especially.

This would mean the mines do less damage-per-distance from the center of the explosion, also meaning they're less deadly the further from the core you get.

Alas, this would make the mines slightly less viable, since the explosion radius would have been adjusted, but if the Doom, and other minelayers were able to shut down the enemies engines, this would be a dangerous situatio for them.

The spawn radius for the mines shouldn't be changed, as a precaution to this. Changing the spawn radius for the mine to spawn closer to the enemy ship would be disastrous.
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TaLaR

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 11:33:56 PM »

The spawn radius for the mines shouldn't be changed, as a precaution to this. Changing the spawn radius for the mine to spawn closer to the enemy ship would be disastrous.

Current radius is already disastrous for character skill overclocked frigates. Doom's mines are single greatest danger to player-piloted Afflictor.
High speed + small collision radius + unphase cooldown and lack of shield = pretty much instantly dead Afflictor. To the point that you simply can't afford to uncloak in motion anywhere around a Doom.

And it's made worse by Defensive Systems 3 (which is a very desirable skill in most situations), since 4x time seriously limits your ability to out-wait the Doom.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 11:37:07 PM by TaLaR »
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Megas

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 04:56:28 AM »

Quote
To the point that you simply can't afford to uncloak in motion anywhere around a Doom.

And it's made worse by Defensive Systems 3 (which is a very desirable skill in most situations), since 4x time seriously limits your ability to out-wait the Doom.
In my case, I had close calls with my Harbinger when I attack targets near my allied Doom, or when I retreat from enemy battlestation (after torpedoing it) only to have mines suddenly appear and block my escape route because my AI-controlled Doom is attacking enemies in my way, making mines more of a threat than some insignificant Hound or Mule that tries to cut off my escape or enemy fighter swarm on its way to my fleet.  By blocking escape route, I mean the place where I can safety decloak and vent is not safe anymore due to sudden appearance of mine and I need to find another place where my ship can decloak before hard flux caps and ship overloads.
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Euphytose

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2019, 06:40:38 AM »

The Doom is definitely a very big threat right now. If there's one in a fleet it's the number one priority even if it means losing a ship in the process (until recovered of course).
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Alex

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2019, 09:13:03 AM »

(Just FYI, there is indeed a dropoff in damage, to, IIRC half the damage, at a certain distance past the "core radius" of the explosion, in which all targets take full damage. For the Reaper, the core is 75 units, and the outer radius is 175. For the Doom's mines, it's 200/250, so there's much less area with reduced damage, but it's still there.)
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XazoTak

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2019, 12:37:57 AM »

I just want teleporting mines to be removed, they were an interesting idea but they don't work for one very simple reason: They aren't actually mines, they're torpedoes with unlimited ammo, higher hit chance, and the ability to hit past shields.

Here's the "Is it a mine?" checklist:
-Usable defensively as a deterrent or trap (No, too little ammo to be effective in wide open space)
-Hazardous for a long time (No)
-Explodes (Yes)

Here's the "Is it a torpedo?" checklist:
-Can be used aggressively (Yes)
-Approaches the target in a straight line, hitting if correctly aimed (Yes, there is no chance of a top-speed target not getting hit by a mine teleported into its path)
-Explodes (Yes)

These "mines" are 33% mine and 100% torpedo.
They're by far the most overpowered torpedo, because they have infinite ammo and you cannot defend against them by simply putting a shield between you and your target. Against anything able to teleport mines, you absolutely have to have your shield facing the way your ship moves, because otherwise you can be instakilled at any moment. Obviously, AIs don't know this and so they are easily killed by mines.
This is kind of like the stickybomb launcher in TF2: The devs intended to make an area denial weapon, but ended up with a very powerful grenade launcher.
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Shad

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2019, 02:46:02 AM »

I just want teleporting mines to be removed, they were an interesting idea but they don't work for one very simple reason: They aren't actually mines, they're torpedoes with unlimited ammo, higher hit chance, and the ability to hit past shields.
TBH, all missiles should have unlimited ammo. Limited ammo is a relic from past versions like Hounds.

As for mines, they kinda remind of mines from Crest of Stars.
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Grievous69

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2019, 03:03:45 AM »

Keeping in mind that mines are only available to Doom and high-tech star fortresses they're not THAT broken. Sure they're annoying as hell and do crazy damage but it made the Doom actually worth its price.
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Euphytose

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2019, 04:53:46 AM »

TBH, all missiles should have unlimited ammo.

No.
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Megas

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2019, 05:41:56 AM »

TBH, all missiles should have unlimited ammo. Limited ammo is a relic from past versions like Hounds.
Yes, I agree.  Ditto for AM Blaster.  Even if unlimited missiles have a long refire delay, like current AM Blaster.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2019, 09:17:33 AM »

Yes, I agree.  Ditto for AM Blaster.  Even if unlimited missiles have a long refire delay, like current AM Blaster.

There's a mod for that. Obviously I agree with the infinite missile viewpoint, especially in light of how carriers work now and such, but I respect that that's not the position of the dev team so that'll remain confined to modding.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 09:28:27 AM by DatonKallandor »
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Igncom1

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2019, 10:17:49 AM »

I suppose the only problem with slow regen or slow recharge missiles is their powerful effect in battle and their uniqueness.

But even then I'm playing with the DA mod right now and having access to a multitude of auto-reloading missile weapons with relatively low damage and low effect is god damn glorious. I have frigates escorting my cruisers all armed with DA's pilum missile and they are great fire support. Pilums are great damage but only if they ever hit, almost like a heavy missile system of a sort. So i'd love some diversity on that front for long range missile bombardment fleets.

As for our current missiles and torpedoes, currently they are amazingly effective when used right, and when used just so so wrong, that making them regenerate outside of stations and the griffon might make even the humble harpoon missile one of the strongest missiles in the game. Frigates just get deleted by them as most of then simply cannot counter their presence, and even up to heavy cruisers can suffer when pressured before a volley.

So I dunno on that front. Carriers seem to often just be missile boats when loaded with bombers anyway so I suppose I cannot say.

As for mines, frankly it's one of the most dangerous weapons in the game right now. I have had hundreds strong pirate fleets be decimated by space forts before they can even engage, which while hilarious is also terrifying. Doom-Class offensive mining is just brokenly good in a way that no over ship system can compete. All before being a phase cruiser.

So balance vs coolness I suppose? Do I want the hard to acquire and costly to maintain doom to have a more balanced system or accept it as simply being highly effective in a degenerating sector of pirate junks? I could go either way.
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Megas

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2019, 10:29:32 AM »

Most missiles are unimpressive when launched by one ship.  They are mostly great when the whole fleet launches a ton of them at once.  The one ship that is great with them, Typhoon Harbinger, will lose missiles next release.

Most missiles I use tend to be ballistic-in-missile-slot weapons like Annihilators or Locusts, those that spam chaff to block enemy fire and do some damage if they hit.

As for Doom's mines, I like them.  Makes the game play more like a retro arcade-like shoot-em-up.  They are annoying and very dangerous for some ship types (while other ships are unfazed by mines).  I have no problem with that.  The only problem I have with mines is AI's misuse of them when targeting an enemy an ally is fighting.  It hurts if Doom or star fortress lays mines in the path of an allied, burn driving low-tech ship and you get friendly-fire casualties.

Mines also let Doom play like a conventional brawler instead of a glorified bomber.
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Shad

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2019, 10:45:07 AM »

I suppose the only problem with slow regen or slow recharge missiles is their powerful effect in battle and their uniqueness.

Missiles (and antimatter blaster) are the only things left with ammo mechanics. Rather than uniqueness it just makes makes them a niche thing. I would never put AM on anything except phase frigates, end even there, there's plenty of competion from other weapons.

Same with torps. The only reason the Harbinger reapers worked was because of the the ship system was literally made for it. And outside of this situation, using fitting Typhoon reapers is "meh".

Quote
As for our current missiles and torpedoes, currently they are amazingly effective when used right, and when used just so so wrong, that making them regenerate outside of stations and the griffon might make even the humble harpoon missile one of the strongest missiles in the game. Frigates just get deleted by them as most of then simply cannot counter their presence, and even up to heavy cruisers can suffer when pressured before a volley.
The previously linked mod does a good attempt at balancing. As long as missile reloads and max ammo are balanced so that you can't just thoughtlessly fire away, it works fine. Bombers can reload missiles, but obviously need to be used carefully.
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Igncom1

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Re: Mines (possibly related to Doom), explosives and their balance.
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2019, 10:58:37 AM »

Bombers can reload missiles, but obviously need to be used carefully.

I'm not sure I would count bombers as needing to be used carefully. Even without longbows you just sledgehammer the enemy until they die. Which is extremely easy to do against every enemy target. Nothing careful about them.

If anything they can be used even more carelessly then your ballistic weapons with bombers like piranhas filling the void with bombs and torpedo bombers blowing their HE loads through shields. At least with normal guns you have to care about your own flux build up, bomber fleets are some of the strongest in the game.

AM blasters aren't as worth using due to being a small weapon where on larger ships you might as well just stick to medium sized weapons and leave the small for PD. Making them hard to use outside of the same role as a missile from very short range. So you, a frigates best job. Not that Medusas with AM blasters isn't effective, and I highly recommend trying it.

I still use missiles all the time, I never understood why people suggest never bothering with them as they are VERY good at flipping a situation around or hammering down an advantage. One or two sabot launchers can easily turn whole battles around and are well worth the price.
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