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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Author Topic: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps  (Read 5082 times)

Maelstrom

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Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« on: February 03, 2019, 12:52:10 PM »

Hey alex, I know this would require to rewrite a bunch of stuff but I think it would be cool to have a chunk system in-game so sectors could be generated outside the current playable area and this could allow for HUGE maps without breaking the game. Chunks could be then set on idle and only system where the player has been to get saved like in factorio. I wish this was added since it would allow for us to make series of outposts to finally discover what really happened to the gate network as an end game and hell, all of the "core" worlds could be procedurally generated except for their position in the milky way. Places like the solar system or other close know stars could contain things that are always there in any playthrough a bit like the core worlds in the sector but the rest could be generated like the systems we can discover that have gates in them and decivilised worlds.  Would be cool to find pockets that were also not effected by the collapse since maybe it was just a big science experiment.

Anyhows, I think this really would make the game alot more enjoyable because once the whole sector is explored there is very little to do and with blueprints being "rare" in a vanilla playthrough and litterally impossible to aquire all of them with mods I think it could simply be changed where blueprints for guns and ships are unique and each gun, wing, ship has their own blueprint. This would make any discovery fun and would resemble the borderlands feel of never running out of unique guns (except it isnt infinite)

Having a system like this would also allow for larger and more complex faction mods as I am sure the core worlds must have been a huge mish mash of different faction styles. Not only would it allow for much more narrative to be implemented, it would also make nexerelin playthroughs alot longer and hell, conversion mods could possibly be a thing of the past since they would have plenty of room away from the sector for their narrative to hold together but still be in the same as the rest of the galaxy.

Everything could be customizable like how many sectors around the one the player is in would remain active to how big the scale of the galaxy plane would be. A fog of war system could also work since hell, the galaxy is so big it would probably be impossible to reach the edge of it.

this idea has been in the back of my head but when "A nice green frog" on discord started messing with sector size I just saw the potential

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Megas

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Re: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2019, 01:14:12 PM »

No thanks!  Especially if that means player needs to travel so much to kill pirates and pathers before a colony burns to the ground.  Next release, expeditions will cost reputation, so player might need to grind rep too.  It is already hard enough to explore without an event that requires player intervention to deal with.  Player needs to be at several places at the same time to deal with problems, but he can only be at one place at a time.

Setting up a colony very far in the fringe may not be useful due to extreme accessibility penalty.

The main appeal to this I see is more rare loot.  For that, just pump Planetary Operations and raid factions' heavy industries for missing blueprints.  As for exploring, you simply see more of the same, maybe holding out hope that you find more missing blueprints and maybe a better system to colonize if accessibility is not too low.

P.S.  I would not mind an option for slightly bigger sector than normal size, but not many times bigger as shown in the OP's image.  However, for something that huge, maybe portals to a stack of multiple sectors like dungeon levels, like normal space -> Hyperspace -> QuasiSpace in Star Control 2 or all of the star systems in Transcendence, could be handy, especially if there is a way to jump to different levels.  (Might make Transverse Jump ability too powerful for this idea.)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 01:23:18 PM by Megas »
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Maelstrom

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Re: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2019, 01:26:14 PM »

like any release tweaks would have to be made of course. I don't see why other inactive chunks would have a dramatic and negative effect on the currently active chunk we play in (the core worlds). The whole point of simply adding chunks is to prevent these broken things to happen if you want to play on a large map, nothing is going to force you anyways but if you want to its there :P

The whole point of this is to add possibilities! Imagine if exploration got the same response as this had from you just because you think of the current way things are! If you try 0.7.2 you will see how stale things are without exploration or other things like building colonies. The whole point of such a feature would simply give you alot more space to explore and find blueprints but the core worlds should still remain as functional as they are in 0.9. Why should you be forced to travel extremely long distances with no exciting things to find anyway? That wouldn't be fun at all :P

also those images shown are to show how broken it is if chunks arent added. The game doesn't save only the small active regions but every single one of these star systems. Making sectors this large currently makes the game chug but if it was changed you wouldn't be forced to go out there...

I also forgot to mention the with active gates if you find any gates and have whats needed you can bring back the gates back online and this basically removes the need to travel huge distances between certain regions. Theres always solutions to small issues like this and stopping at the issues without considering the small solutions would make any addition to this game impossible with that trail of thought :P
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 01:30:53 PM by Mealstrom »
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Megas

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Re: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2019, 01:35:45 PM »

You need much more unique content to make a greatly expanded sector worth exploring beyond finding missing blueprints and maybe filling out the planetdex.  Otherwise, it is powergaming at best (more money and loot) or tedium at worst.

Tweaks required would include accessibility modifier for your colonies, events that involve core worlds (because pirates will happily decivilize some core worlds if you do not intervene), maybe enemy base placement (you may need to travel very far to stop that pather base from blowing up something on your colony).

I thought about the inactive gates, but did not bring them up because I am sure Alex has plans for them.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 01:37:25 PM by Megas »
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Nicke535

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Re: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2019, 02:01:04 PM »

You've heard most of my points on the discord already regarding this, but I'll quickly summarize them anyhow:

A: This would be a major development sink, as it forces not only a rewrite of the core campaign's save/data storage structure, but also a very large amount of content in order to fill the other "chunks" with anything more than repeating content. Just "adding more area" only thins the content out over a longer playtime, risking to completely ruin pacing.

B: It would over-rely on modding to incorporate said content in large-enough bulk, which is detrimental to the main game. The game needs to be good in its own right, and major development efforts that actively detriment a non-modded experience feels unnecessary at best, wasteful at worst.

C: Your points of how the sector operates and the gates over-rely on information Alex has not yet incorporated in the game playing out in a very specific manner (gates activating in gameplay, for example).

D: The game has been designed with a fairly tight scope in mind, and trying to go too far outside said scope will only ruin the overall tone and/or pacing of the game.


As a final note, you should stop disregarding criticism simply because you already assume you are on to the "right answer" and everyone else is just too narrow-minded to see it. It's mildly insulting to those who actually try to consider your ideas.

Cosmitz

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Re: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2019, 02:27:40 PM »

Personally, i'd rather have the player be able to build 'gates' to other sectors if you want 'more content' but still easily accessible from the 'core' sector. Expanding the map outwards doesn't do anything good with no fast-travel/teleport.
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TJJ

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Re: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2019, 03:18:56 PM »

Chunking worlds requires there to be zero interaction between loaded & unloaded chunks (and limited interaction between loaded chunks)
Besides the immediate impact this would have upon Starsector's current implementation, you have to ask yourself the question:

What's the point of the unloaded chunks, if they're playing no part in the game?

It's a critique that can be easily levelled at Minecraft; a practically endless world, yes... but what does chunk x+100 achieve that chunk x does not?
Likewise, the vast universe of Elite Dangerous.... vast, yes... but empty, disconnected & ultimately pointless.

That's not to say chunking has no merit; forcing even a finite world to be segmented into chunks imposes design constraints that, when correctly exploited, can allow the simulation to be massively parallelized and so suitable for multi-threading.

Ultimately what you're asking for is a completely different game.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 03:20:27 PM by TJJ »
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Maelstrom

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Re: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2019, 04:05:26 PM »

Personally, i'd rather have the player be able to build 'gates' to other sectors if you want 'more content' but still easily accessible from the 'core' sector. Expanding the map outwards doesn't do anything good with no fast-travel/teleport.

This would be actually better tbh, your idea would be way simpler to implement as well :P

Didn't think about that.
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RawCode

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Re: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 03:35:34 AM »

really good plan*

now please explain, how player should enjoy hour long hyperspace flight, that feature zero interactive elements, with exception of holding "shift" constantly.

There is nothing to explore, and loot grinding can be implemented as "instant dungeons" or just repeatable quests that spawn more different stuff to fight.

For "exploration of interesting systems", putting "hyperspace anomaly" system that regenerated each time player enters it will have exactly same result without any side effects related to tedium of traveling around.




*no
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Deshara

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Re: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 07:52:44 PM »

the game's map is already too large for the amount of content it has.
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Megas

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Re: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2019, 03:45:42 AM »

the game's map is already too large for the amount of content it has.
(I think) normal size it is only too large due to 1) too many fires (like pirate and pather bases, maybe expeditions too) the player needs to put out which can make fringe exploration difficult and 2) accessibility penalties and long travel times that make fringe colonies with otherwise great stats a possible liability.  However, I do like to search for more planets to colonize and more systems to plunder, but there is a limit before everything feels the same.  You know cooler stars tend to have the best colony planets, nebulas have planets with extreme hazard, and others that are not worth exploring if not the chance for rare loot (items or Legion XIV ships).

What player needs is the ability to send other fleets to deal with problems so player can do what he wants instead of playing Superman married to the job of saving civilians and has no personal life.  If player can do that, then a slightly bigger map than normal may be useful, so he can do things in peace for long periods of time.

If there are more quests like Red Planet that are placed in the fringe later, then player needs some relief from the job of being Superman or space cop.  It gets annoying when I am ready to travel to the fringe for some reason or go on a blueprint raid (that might take some months to resolve), then I get an alert (like a colony threat) that forces me to stop what I want to do, turn back, and rush to deal with the problem before really bad things happen.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 03:53:45 AM by Megas »
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Igncom1

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Re: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2019, 05:18:29 AM »

Even the expeditions are not the worst thing in the world compared to Luddic terror cells. By god are they prolific and devastating.

The pirates just scoop a little off the top and occasionally raid, the factions lead mass armadas to our doorstep but the Luddites? Mass infiltration from extraordinary distances with briefcase nukes.

I do like a lot of the content in the game already, the red planet with the shield, the drone mothership, the cryostasis ship, the remnant battlestations with a sleuth of devastated worlds and space stations dotted around all before the stuff that spawns in like the bounty fleets, pirates and luddites.

But I still see more then a couple of stars with nothing around them, with stars that have probes being the next of the least interesting places to be due to the lack of a real reward for fighting them. But I am hard pressed to say what should really be changed.

In my current game I surveyed half of a small sector before settling down near the cyrostasis ship for massive pop growth on a moderately decent tundra world. But now? Other then finishing my surveying of the small sector, defending my super colony, and culling the sector of the remnants I have little more to feasibly do other then play with ship load outs with my pool of infinite money. It's not a terrible problem to have, but there isn't much to work towards in this era before the start of a 'post apocalyptic 4x space empire building game'.

Looking forward to that mod by the way as well. Not that the current economy wants you to have more then one colony anyway.
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Plantissue

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Re: Chunk generation system so we can have insanely large maps
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2019, 02:43:19 PM »

Back when the generated systems were not created yet for the game, I always thought that the procedurally generated systems were to be situated both around and between the core worlds,, so the core worlds would be roughly dispersed in a central location yet distributed between the procedural systems,  so for example, to go from luddic sytems to Hegemony systems you would have to go through 3 or 4 systems filled with pirates. This always seemed to make more sense and be more atmospheric to me than a bunch of core worlds surrounded by pirates.
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