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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Raiding for Fun and Profit (11/27/19)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 121056 times)

Arakasi

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #840 on: August 25, 2019, 02:36:04 AM »

Something I've noticed in this patch is that bounties start to get unsustainable pretty quickly. Often times, given the sheer arsenal you have to bring to beat the higher end fleets, the bounty reward barely (if at all) covers your running costs to get there and claim it. If the difficulty of the bounties scales up over time or number completed, why does the reward not scale with them?
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #841 on: August 25, 2019, 04:33:42 PM »

Well the answer to that is to kill bounties more efficiently. If you can use less/cheaper ships, eventually the cost to get to the bounty is much less than the raw salvage from the fight, and the reward is pure profit on top.
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Arakasi

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #842 on: August 26, 2019, 01:04:26 AM »

Well the answer to that is to kill bounties more efficiently. If you can use less/cheaper ships, eventually the cost to get to the bounty is much less than the raw salvage from the fight, and the reward is pure profit on top.

I mean obviously - but there's only so efficient you can be when lugging the 4-5 capital ships necessary to take on a fleet of 6+ opposing capital ships for a $300,000 reward.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 01:14:33 AM by Arakasi »
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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #843 on: August 26, 2019, 01:08:42 AM »

Yea it's a bit silly 150k fleets have maybe a cruiser or two, and then just 100k more you get 4-5 capital fleets. They should be at least 500k when you have weak pirate bases that pay close to 300k.
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TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #844 on: August 26, 2019, 01:16:30 AM »

Well the answer to that is to kill bounties more efficiently. If you can use less/cheaper ships, eventually the cost to get to the bounty is much less than the raw salvage from the fight, and the reward is pure profit on top.

I mean obviously - but there's only so sufficient you can be when lugging the 4-5 capital ships necessary to take on a fleet of 6+ opposing capital ships for a $300,000 reward.

You don't have to bring any capitals. Several chain deployed Afflictors for player + mostly cruiser based fleet is enough to win without taking losses (well maybe one or two of distraction Omens). Fleets with tons of capitals have relatively few and often low level officers, so they are not as strong as they look.

Still, previous version didn't require such extreme Afflictor (ab)use.
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Arakasi

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #845 on: August 26, 2019, 01:35:28 AM »

You don't have to bring any capitals. Several chain deployed Afflictors for player + mostly cruiser based fleet is enough to win without taking losses (well maybe one or two of distraction Omens). Fleets with tons of capitals have relatively few and often low level officers, so they are not as strong as they look.

Still, previous version didn't require such extreme Afflictor (ab)use.
I mean look, yes, there are broken chains of smaller ships you can bring to take down capital ships, but in the mid-game when you're just trying to grind credits you likely don't have access to either the credits you need to purchase that, or the production for the ships themselves. As it is I'm running on capitals I've scavenged from prior bounties as my main force.
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TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #846 on: August 26, 2019, 01:47:49 AM »

You don't have to bring any capitals. Several chain deployed Afflictors for player + mostly cruiser based fleet is enough to win without taking losses (well maybe one or two of distraction Omens). Fleets with tons of capitals have relatively few and often low level officers, so they are not as strong as they look.

Still, previous version didn't require such extreme Afflictor (ab)use.
I mean look, yes, there are broken chains of smaller ships you can bring to take down capital ships, but in the mid-game when you're just trying to grind credits you likely don't have access to either the credits you need to purchase that, or the production for the ships themselves. As it is I'm running on capitals I've scavenged from prior bounties as my main force.

You can buy enough Afflictors from black markets, they cost only about 50k each. 2 (1 Reaper, 1 AM) are more or less enough for all but largest fleets, 4 are safely enough for any single enemy fleet.
If you have no luck with black market, restoring them for around 100k is a better option than having no Afflictors.

In fact you don't have to scavenge ships either, my whole fleet consists of black market bought pristine ships. Herons, Drovers, Falcons, Eagles, Afflictors - all the backbone ships are easily enough available. Pretty much every visit to larger worlds, black market had at least 1 of these.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #847 on: August 26, 2019, 08:29:40 AM »

Something I've noticed in this patch is that bounties start to get unsustainable pretty quickly. Often times, given the sheer arsenal you have to bring to beat the higher end fleets, the bounty reward barely (if at all) covers your running costs to get there and claim it. If the difficulty of the bounties scales up over time or number completed, why does the reward not scale with them?

With the caveat that they may be over-tuned and could use another look (and will scale a bit different in the next release, anyway), I think it's likely less "unsustainable" and instead "gets more difficult". I'm pretty sure a refined fleet with level 20 officers and a powerful player-controlled flagship could do it sustainably, without resorting to edge-case tactics like Afflictor abuse.

There's also not going out to the fringe for a single bounty (not that you're necessarily doing that, just thought it worth mentioning) - generally, these things are intended to be part of something you do while in an area, i.e. a couple of bounties, bounty + salvage, bounty + station bounty, etc).

(Edit: just wanted to add that I will be looking at this again.)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 08:44:29 AM by Alex »
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Arakasi

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #848 on: August 26, 2019, 09:13:33 AM »

Hmm. I mean, it certainly gets more difficult, there's no denying that, and that's absolutely fine in theory (unless the player needs to rebuild after a catastrophic loss). Though I have been using high ranked officers and salvaged capitals to do this (I don't really use player-controlled ships much) I've had trouble, usually breaking around even. I don't really go too far out for bounties because then the running costs in supplies, fuel, crew payouts, etc would be too high. Bounties occasionally cluster in fruitful ways, but more often they're isolated in a system that doesn't necessarily have value otherwise - and to explore more once I get there would be wasteful since the aforementioned fuel and supply costs for a high tier fleet are so much. As usual this has forced my playstyle to be slanted far more towards a low-tier exploration fleet since that is far less risky (REDACTED systems aside) and far more profitable - I can get around 500k give or take per expedition with minimal upkeep. In any case, as someone else in the thread noted, they are absolutely out of sync with station bounties which give an insane amount for something that can probably be done with 1-2 capitals.

As a side note: i've been doing all this without the supplemental income of a colony planet, and so there is no safety net for when the fleet turns out to be too powerful, or when I lose ships in a battle. This might be a relevant factor.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 09:19:49 AM by Arakasi »
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #849 on: August 26, 2019, 09:31:13 AM »

Hmm, yeah. Not controlling a ship in combat is... well, it's viable, but it's definitely not the intended way to play, in the sense that the game is balanced around the player piloting a ship, and that if you don't do this, you will be playing at a serious disadvantage. You're probably giving up half of your effective combat power right there.

Given that bounty-hunting as a playstyle (and, as you mention, without the safety net of a colony) really hinges on the fleet's combat performance, that's probably going to hit you more than it might if you were playing in another way. Just a combination of factors all making it more difficult!
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Arakasi

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #850 on: August 26, 2019, 09:42:58 AM »

Hmm, yeah. Not controlling a ship in combat is... well, it's viable, but it's definitely not the intended way to play, in the sense that the game is balanced around the player piloting a ship, and that if you don't do this, you will be playing at a serious disadvantage. You're probably giving up half of your effective combat power right there.

Given that bounty-hunting as a playstyle (and, as you mention, without the safety net of a colony) really hinges on the fleet's combat performance, that's probably going to hit you more than it might if you were playing in another way. Just a combination of factors all making it more difficult!

Ah, well I guess since I never invest points into the player-combat skills I never saw much advantage in it. Impressive that you assess it as half though, maybe I should give it another go.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #851 on: August 26, 2019, 09:49:57 AM »

The AI is fairly conservative, and plays it safe a lot of the time. So the impact the player can have by being aggressive at just the right times is outsized, even in larger battles. Investing into combat skills is going to magnify this *a lot*, though.

(A Doom might be a good choice for a flagship in your situation, btw; I think it's one of the ships that can do quite well without combat skills, and has a lot to offer as far as supporting your other ships.)
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Arakasi

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #852 on: August 26, 2019, 09:55:37 AM »

The AI is fairly conservative, and plays it safe a lot of the time. So the impact the player can have by being aggressive at just the right times is outsized, even in larger battles. Investing into combat skills is going to magnify this *a lot*, though.

(A Doom might be a good choice for a flagship in your situation, btw; I think it's one of the ships that can do quite well without combat skills, and has a lot to offer as far as supporting your other ships.)

Oh yes, the doom and other phase ships I have tried. Those I find are so strong in the player's hands I felt like playing them was, well, not quite cheating, but sorta cheesy.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #853 on: August 26, 2019, 10:12:26 AM »

The Afflictor stuff definitely feels like that, but the Doom to me is just plain fun :) Still, obviously subjective! Maybe others can chime on on what ships they've found effective skill-less; I don't actually have a ton of experience with that since I tend to pick up at least some combat skills when playtesting. I'd imagine anything that's fast (and not a frigate/destroyer) can do the job, though...
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.9.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #854 on: August 26, 2019, 10:34:47 AM »

Player can increase a ship's worth up to 1100%, if piloted well and with combat skills. Player-piloted capital ship can easily be worth an entire AI fleet. Even if you don't achieve this peak performance, AI still sort of expects the player to take the risk.
Above all that, combat is the most fun activity in the game and you lose out a lot by not participating in it.
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