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Author Topic: Why is there friendly fire?  (Read 2574 times)

Tempest

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Why is there friendly fire?
« on: January 18, 2019, 10:57:29 PM »

I just had a cloud of standard bombs thrown at me by my own Legion. Previously I tried equipping Mules with lots of Annihilator missile packs, which they promptly emptied into my engines.

It makes no sense. We have IFF and self-destruct capability on missiles in this day and age, a spacefaring civ surely has the means to not shoot its own ships.
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Deshara

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2019, 01:44:17 AM »

considering the current state of bombers you could consider it a balancing feature
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Philder

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2019, 01:49:10 AM »

Identity signals can be spoofed and friendlies can suffer damage to identity signaling systems. If a commander had to choose between giving the enemy the chance to disable their weapons, or trust in their forces to not shoot each other or walk into the line of fire and just accept some occasional friendly fire losses, they'd choose the second option every time.

It'd make a lot of sense for intelligent munitions to electronically shield itself and no longer accept signaling after being fully armed and fired to prevent counter-measures from interfering with its mission, or even worse, being used by the enemy. Intelligent munitions and everything they involve are also a lot more costly to produce.

I'm not an industry expert on the matter but as far as I know, Identity signaling just gives weapon controllers a message of who they're aiming at, and it's the weapon controllers' perogative to shoot or not.

To answer your question, my take on friendly fire is that FF is an integral part of warfare. Removing FF completely changes the way war is waged. It's typically instituted because the idea behind the game is completely untennable with FF, whether through game functionality or multiplayer griefing. Logic and historical continuity need not apply to fictional works.

Either way, the ACTUAL problem you're having an issue with is either AI deficiencies or you're just blindly moving into the path of oncoming weapons.
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Tempest

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2019, 02:57:37 AM »

The actual problem is that the fight was already over, while the bombers sneaked up on me and helpfully unloaded everything they had. I'm sitting there in my Falcon thinking I won, when I notice incoming bombs and think "Do those blow up my ship?", completely unable to move out of the way.

This makes unguided missiles completely useless on AI ships. It is not a balancing feature, but a design flaw. Since we have minimal control over what the AI decides to do at any given moment, you can't prevent your carrier or a missile frigate from trying to "help" by arriving too late. Even if you happen to have command points left, there's no way to guarantee that they won't just continue helping instead.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2019, 03:45:50 AM »

Unguided weapons can't be spoofed by flares, but also aren't friendly fire proof. That's the trade-off you make with them. They're far from useless.
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RawCode

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2019, 04:44:50 AM »

this happen when you play rambo and let your AI ships tend for themselves, as you move forward and cross fire lines, as result taking FF from "slow" weapons.

in case of beams they perfectly predict your movement and disable beams just at time for your passage.
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Tempest

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2019, 07:34:49 AM »

this happen when you play rambo and let your AI ships tend for themselves, as you move forward and cross fire lines, as result taking FF from "slow" weapons.

in case of beams they perfectly predict your movement and disable beams just at time for your passage.

This happens when you are fighting a ship, then your carrier shows up and unloads stuff in your direction.
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Alex

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2019, 07:44:31 AM »

Previously I tried equipping Mules with lots of Annihilator missile packs, which they promptly emptied into my engines.

If you could provide more detail about when/how that happens, that could be helpful in tracking this down. They're supposed to avoid friendly fire - and mostly do - so some specifics here would be really nice.
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Megas

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2019, 08:29:43 AM »

Friendly fire problems:

Piranha.  Their bombs are very slow and travel for a while before they disappear.  The bombs can also be hard to see, and my ships have taken damage or spontaneously combusted from an unknown source (which is probably Piranha bombs).

Also, ships with burn drive and Doom are not a good combination.   If Doom and ship with burn drive fight the same target, Doom might lay mines in the path of a burn driving ship with no way for the latter to avoid.  Does Doom even account for allied burn driving ships?  If not, it needs to do that or if that cannot be done, bring back vent canceling featured in one of the 0.7.x releases.
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Euphytose

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2019, 08:49:55 AM »

I liked Burn Drive cancelling but I think it's really overpowered, it basically nullifies the lack of speed for ships that have it, mostly Enforcer, Dominator and Onslaught, at no downside whatsoever.
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Megas

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2019, 09:54:52 AM »

I do not want my AI-controlled Doom or star fortress to lay mines in the path of my Enforcer, Dominator, or Onslaught if we fight the same enemy or general area.  I do not care how that is fixed.
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Tempest

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2019, 02:12:00 PM »

Previously I tried equipping Mules with lots of Annihilator missile packs, which they promptly emptied into my engines.

If you could provide more detail about when/how that happens, that could be helpful in tracking this down. They're supposed to avoid friendly fire - and mostly do - so some specifics here would be really nice.

Unfortunately, that was many playthroughs ago (I restart a lot). By the looks of it, it takes too long for a missile like Annihilator to travel from max range, so the shooter may think there's no friendies in the way. Except it's possible to drift into the line of fire or have the enemy hide behind you while a missile salvo is taking place. The Rocket Launcher version of it fires 5 missiles before it can stop, and I had two of them equipped, plus the bigger Pod in the front.

I had equipped 4-5 mules as missile platforms, and I think they were just throwing missiles in the pack we were fighting. They didn't kill me when I noticed, but it wasn't a pleasant discovery.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 02:13:48 PM by Tempest »
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FreedomFighter

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2019, 06:39:40 PM »

this happen when you play rambo and let your AI ships tend for themselves, as you move forward and cross fire lines, as result taking FF from "slow" weapons.

in case of beams they perfectly predict your movement and disable beams just at time for your passage.

Except for the Tri-Tac beam. If something spook the AI that is using it, it could cut your entire fleet in half.
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RawCode

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2019, 11:13:59 PM »

burst beams cannot be disabled and have "warmup", it's quite easy to get shot from AI, especially if you operate SO frigate.
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Lighthouse

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Re: Why is there friendly fire?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2019, 10:24:04 AM »

By the looks of it, it takes too long for a missile like Annihilator to travel from max range, so the shooter may think there's no friendies in the way. Except it's possible to drift into the line of fire or have the enemy hide behind you while a missile salvo is taking place. The Rocket Launcher version of it fires 5 missiles before it can stop, and I had two of them equipped, plus the bigger Pod in the front.


I think your problem is with the behavior of the ships getting hit (not prioritizing staying out of the way of friendly dumb-fire missiles) rather than with the behavior of the ship firing the missiles.
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