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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Skills and Story Points (07/08/19)

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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla  (Read 30740 times)

DatonKallandor

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Regenerating Missiles and Clip-based ballistics for vanilla Starsector. In addition to regenerating, missiles have reduced re-fire rates to stop one-shot eliminations and strange scaling with expanded missile ammo hullmod.

Rule of thumb for the regeneration times is: The smaller the mount the slower missiles will regenerate. Missiles generally regenerate one-firing-amount at a time, it does not replace the entire magazine at once but it does replace enough to not fire partial volleys for launchers that have bursts.
Rule of thumb for refire rate is: The bigger the mount, the higher the missile volume - and the weaker/lower tech the missile is the higher the refire rate.

All strikecraft that used missiles have received their own versions of those missiles that do not regenerate, to keep the strikecraft gameplay intact. The exception are strikecraft that used missiles that already did regenerate - Talons using swarmers for example. Those missiles are named [Missile Name] (Strikecraft) to differentiate them - they should not appear in blueprints or acquireable in any way hopefully.

Ballistics clips are based on Alex's values from a the version of Starsector when ballistics were clip-based, with addition tweaks where playtesting found certain values to be out of whack.

Download: https://github.com/DatonKallandor/Missiles-and-Sundry/releases/tag/RC3

Missile Only version included in download

Example Pictures:
Big Reaper vs Small Reaper:
Spoiler
vs
[close]
Strapping a single missiles to the hull of your ship vs dedicated triple rack
Spoiler
vs
 *this comparison makes me think single missiles might need to be a little worse*
[close]

Heavy Autocannon vs Heavy Needler
Spoiler
vs
 Big props to Alex values here, because suddenly the Heavy Needler has a real big upside. Those sustained values are very nice.
[close]
New in version RC3:
Strikecraft specific weapons now invisible in Codex and Arcade
New in version RC2:
0.9.1a weapon stat changes integrated!
Light Needler sustained damage buff - Light and Heavy Needlers now trade single-projectile damage for superior sustained damage in long engagements.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 06:22:40 AM by DatonKallandor »
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Thyrork

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2019, 05:40:37 AM »

I played a campaign with this mod a few weeks back and the changes it offers is pleasant. The mod is every inch the perfect gameplay modifier, doesn't feel required but it changes up so much by being an option to use. Rethinking designs based on the recharging missiles and rethinking balistics due to their magazines makes for different weapon loadout choices. The lowered alpha strike power of torps being offset by a hit and run gameplay is satisfying stuff.

I cant recommend it enough for someone looking for a significant change to vanilla that keeps to the existing ships.
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From a Faster Time

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2019, 06:28:00 AM »

Post a gameplay demo clip please. Or some value changes as an example.
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Starareo

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2019, 04:39:00 PM »

How does this interact with mod fighters/missiles etc?
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2019, 05:13:05 PM »

How does this interact with mod fighters/missiles etc?

It doesn't, which makes the whole thing a bit silly if you want to play with any other mods since those are usually balanced around the way vanilla does things
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My mods: Sylphon RnD - Tahlan Shipworks - Trailer Moments
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Snrasha

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2019, 11:45:28 PM »

How does this interact with mod fighters/missiles etc?

It doesn't, which makes the whole thing a bit silly if you want to play with any other mods since those are usually balanced around the way vanilla does things

This is the problem of any balance mod, they become strongly unbalanced if you add a another mod. ^^
Well, like i play always with Underworld, SWP, i will never install this mod, but if people play only vanilla without SWP or underworld, this mod is a good thing.
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Thyrork

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2019, 06:07:04 AM »

Yup! I found it best with no other factions, a nice Vanilla-alternative mod.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2019, 07:19:44 AM »

How does this interact with mod fighters/missiles etc?

It doesn't, which makes the whole thing a bit silly if you want to play with any other mods since those are usually balanced around the way vanilla does things

I did compare to Syphon's regenerating missiles recently and it turns out their stats are extremely close to mine, so mods that feature a decent amount of regenerating missiles will be fairly similar in terms of feel. Their ballistics are probably going to be too good, but I can make a missile-only spin-off if there's more demand for a version without the ballistics changes. The ballistics changes are really the ones that have the biggest balance impact - the missiles pay for the regen by having their one-mount burst ability removed.
Edit: Bonus Sylphon example - compore to Large Reaper in the OP you'll see that it turns out the values are extremely similar. Balance hivemind at work I guess.
Spoiler
[close]

I also have a version of the mod for Disassemble Reassemble, but I don't feel comfortable posting it because it is just a modified weapon.csv and a fighter variant change directly from another mod.

I'll put an example picture into the OP I guess to show some of the stats. Edit: This has now been done.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 07:55:53 AM by DatonKallandor »
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FreedomFighter

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2019, 11:00:45 AM »

I just wish all the Missiles are regen because right now it is either you use high-burst missile or those OP is better to be put on something else.

That Selene missile is strong due to how it can't be shot down until it reveals itself and it is also homing. The damage and destruction it does is balance for what it does imo but still, I rather use that 22 OP on some other energy/beam weapons.
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2019, 11:59:32 AM »

How does this interact with mod fighters/missiles etc?

It doesn't, which makes the whole thing a bit silly if you want to play with any other mods since those are usually balanced around the way vanilla does things

I did compare to Syphon's regenerating missiles recently and it turns out their stats are extremely close to mine, so mods that feature a decent amount of regenerating missiles will be fairly similar in terms of feel. Their ballistics are probably going to be too good, but I can make a missile-only spin-off if there's more demand for a version without the ballistics changes. The ballistics changes are really the ones that have the biggest balance impact - the missiles pay for the regen by having their one-mount burst ability removed.
Edit: Bonus Sylphon example - compore to Large Reaper in the OP you'll see that it turns out the values are extremely similar. Balance hivemind at work I guess.
Spoiler
[close]

I also have a version of the mod for Disassemble Reassemble, but I don't feel comfortable posting it because it is just a modified weapon.csv and a fighter variant change directly from another mod.

I'll put an example picture into the OP I guess to show some of the stats. Edit: This has now been done.

The Sylphon regenerating missiles are also notably less powerful, though. Exalts cost a ton of OP and the Selene is only a single, easy-to-destroy missile that also splits its damage across multiple projectiles. If you use your mod with any mod faction, the regenerating vanilla missiles will always be the superior choice for any given role.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2019, 01:35:00 PM »

The Selene is a PD-resistant/immune, homing torpedo, with EMP every ten seconds. My equivalent reaper is more expensive, non-homing, reloads slightly slower, takes twice as long to refire (but fires 2 shots) and has no EMP or PD resistance (it's a normal reaper). It seems pretty damn similar. As for the Exalt, doing a quick comparison of the Exalt-3 to the triple harpoon rack - they're pretty comparable. The Exalt is far more flexible, far more agile, regenerates in a similar timeframe and (at close range) deals more damage (in smaller chunks) - and pays for that by being more OP heavy. Which is actually pretty consistent with how those Syphon missiles stack up against vanilla - less specialized, more jack-of-all-trades, more agile - attributes they pay for by having less anti-capital big armor-crushing one-hit damage. Syphon's missiles are extremely well designed - if anything they're slightly undertuned, which is a lot better than overtuned.

I just wish all the Missiles are regen because right now it is either you use high-burst missile or those OP is better to be put on something else.

That...is what this mod does. All missiles with this are regen (except for bomber versions). Not mod missiles obviously, because there's not really a good way to do that unless I include files from other mods.

Yes of course if you mix a mod that changes a core aspect of the game with mods that don't, the other mods won't be balanced for it. That's out of my hands. Luckily nothing forces you to play with other mods. Or you can use other mods and accept that you'll have to choose between regen missiles without burst capability and bursty missiles you can use only once.

Not that the regen is high enough to make missiles the equivalent of a ballistics or energy mount - they are still very much something where placement and timing matters, and the AI still uses them that way. The regen is just enough to make ships that already fired their missiles once not dead weight or an easy opponent, and to help out the AI (on both sides of the fight) in case a missile strike goes wrong by giving them another one or two chances before CR runs out.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 02:10:27 PM by DatonKallandor »
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Nicke535

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2019, 04:03:07 AM »

The Selene is a PD-resistant/immune, homing torpedo, with EMP every ten seconds. My equivalent reaper is more expensive, non-homing, reloads slightly slower, takes twice as long to refire (but fires 2 shots) and has no EMP or PD resistance (it's a normal reaper). It seems pretty damn similar.
The reaper has:
>almost triple the damage per missile, and almost triple the sustained DPS
>a whopping 13 times the armor-breaking efficiency due to how armor prefers few, high-damage shots
>significantly higher HP for the missile
>better speed

This isn't even touching on the subject that the Selene is an LRM and not a torpedo, making the comparison fairly bad from the start.

DatonKallandor

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2019, 07:07:58 AM »

None of this matters anyway since the Selene isn't a vanilla weapon (although I did mention above I do think it is slightly undertuned, at least in the context of a regenerating large mount missile).
On a more on topic note, the missile only version of the mod is in the OP now.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 07:10:46 AM by DatonKallandor »
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Darloth

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2019, 02:14:48 PM »

Thanks for making this!  It represents a nicely unified approach that I certainly never had the patience to apply but always wanted :)
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Cyan Leader

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Re: [0.9a] Missiles and Sundry - Missile and Ballistic tweaks for vanilla
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2019, 11:27:50 PM »

How does this interact with mod fighters/missiles etc?

It doesn't, which makes the whole thing a bit silly if you want to play with any other mods since those are usually balanced around the way vanilla does things

Wouldn't it work if this mod modified the values of mod missiles too? I mean it's a lot of work and he'd have to pick favorites but following the laid down rules of thumbs he might be able to easily get a good idea for each different missile and then continue balancing through feedback.
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