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Author Topic: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.2.0 - 03/03/19  (Read 81117 times)

Arkar1234

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2019, 10:46:49 PM »

Honestly, I wouldn't even mind if it accidentally breaks or hampers some other mod-dynamics. Sure, this should be flagged as "Might break the exploration value of other mods/base game. So use at your own risk" before it gets the compatibility issues sorted out... but... It's a neat little QoL mod.

The long grind for BPs gets... well... grindy, after while. and there can only be so many systems I can slog through before boredom sets in.
So an option to have a more direct and guaranteed result is appreciated tbh.
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AxleMC131

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2019, 10:58:01 PM »

Gotta say I'm in agreement with Meso and Soren on this subject. While I'm sure the incentive for this mod was positive (It's a cool idea, for sure!), it really does have the potential to hurt mods, and directly mod users and mod makers. Even I have personal qualms about such a concept - I might only maintain a humble little ship pack, not a full-blown faction mod, but I've got content I don't want the player to have "easy access" to. I mean, if you want to edit Disassemble Reassemble's files so the Sturmovik (S) has a blueprint and can be produced at your colonies? Fine by me! But I'd be very concerned by a separate mod that did that for you, with no regard to why such a ship was inaccessible to begin with.

Spoiler

And this doesn't even begin to talk about Tartiflette's plans for Seeker, which aims to involve a huge amount of quest-driven content and unique - as in, there is only actually one of them - ships.

[close]

It's a nice idea for a mod that I'm sure lots of players will like, but it's undoubtedly going to be a huge headache for mod makers. Really, I think Soren put it in the best words possible.

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End users don't know what mod does what; some of them don't know what content comes from what mod. They don't post modlists or screenshots consistently, they have odd nonsense names for things, don't give details, alter your mod and don't tell you... They don't know that it's your mod and not mine that's causing the problem, which means that your mod broke it, but because my mod has the visuals, I'm on the hook for it.
(Points to Soren btw, he makes things crystal clear.)

Something like this has potential to be a popular mod, but it really needs at the minimum a blacklist, and at best a whitelist. Personally I don't recommend a disclaimer or warning on the forum page. Seriously, the kind of mod users that Soren is concerned about are probably the kind of people who don't read stuff like that. If you want to make it foolproof, you have to take fools into account.

That in mind, I wish you the best of luck in the modding scene. Seriously. When someone brings something new and cool to the table, it's gonna get eyes on. And where there's attention, there's feedback and support. Those are always good things, and they'll make your mod even better.
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Null Ganymede

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2019, 10:59:41 PM »

Well-integrated, but a little easy. Factions send murderfleets for a few % of market share, guaranteed blueprints for lost technology? That's a worth a double murderfleet at least. It's the stuff that Profit Factor from Rogue Trader is made of.

Not to mention giving blueprints for ships that can no longer be produced. XIV materiel is by definition irreplaceable, and that's without getting into mod superships or uniques. Maybe limit those to salvaged hulls?
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Harpuea

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2019, 01:26:58 AM »

Hey! I was really hoping for some other alternatives from just loading a bunch of Starliners with Marines and raiding constantly. This fits the bill perfectly. As a simple end user, I appreciates your work.
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Straticus

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2019, 06:46:28 AM »

Again I want to say thanks for all the constructive comments. I was a bit naive as to the potential impact of what the current iteration of this does, and to be honest what’s there at the moment is an early evolution of a utility mod and one that could do with some rework. I’ll release a whitelist filtered version later this week and then at some point badger people to see if I can persuade them to include some of their content.

The thought had occurred to me to resist making this change, but I think it’s better to be a good citizen of the modding community, especially one that’s helped make Starsector my favourite game for a long time.

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To be totally clear; if this mod gets a whitelist and some basic hooks for other creators, I would be happy to sit down and brainstorm a couple pieces of custom content just to interact with it.

As someone who really enjoys DmE, and was inspired in part by your BB content, I’d enjoy doing a tie-in at some point. 8)
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Recklessimpulse

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2019, 08:09:21 AM »

As an end user I also think this is just fine, I must play in a way that never lets me see the secrets hidden in these mods so this is just fine. That said maybe have this version a free for all be optional, and a base version that has a white list? O better have it take white lists as priority and if no white list exists default to every thing being available?
Also the fleets are a bit easy for what your getting.
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LB

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2019, 04:14:56 PM »

I respectfully disagree with many of posters here.

This is clearly a mod which at least some players will legitimately want to use. It perhaps warrants some sort of incompatibility warning, but whether it can exist and advertise itself for use should not be in question.

Mods for singleplayer games are opt-in; each player is responsible for managing how they want to play their own game, and even "ruin" their experience from your subjective perspective if they choose to, provided they don't try to blame everyone else. It is nice of mod authors to build in support for everyone else's mods and especially cool if it leads to proper tie-ins, but it is hard to argue that it even approaches an "obligation" for them to support inter-mod compatibility, much less wide-ranging compatibility that addresses edge cases in other mods which themselves work because of specific assumptions made about vanilla. Every single other modding community (Total War, for example, to cite a case where mod conflicts are a serious problem) simply deals with this by acknowledging that conflicts can cause bug reports in the wrong places, makes the first step of debugging is "what's your mod list" or perhaps "do you have one of these known high-conflict-risk mods installed", and making it perfectly acceptable for each individual author to say "that problem is caused by another mod, and I'm not willing or able to devote time to it at the moment". Starsector's modding structure is super-easy and innately low-conflict by comparison but I don't think that is good reason to turn about and paint wide-ranging compatibility as an "obligation" for other mod authors. Of course it would be another matter if that mod author was maliciously creating incompatibilities and stirring the pot, but there's nothing to warrant accusing Straticus of that. To turn the question around, why should new mod authors be "obliged" to write in special-case support for older ones, provided that they are not applicable to all players (e.g. graphical enhancements) but only cater to players that want a specific gameplay experience?

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The thought had occurred to me to resist making this change
This would have been a perfectly supportable position, but I think where you're going is a nice direction too.

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It's a nice idea for a mod that I'm sure lots of players will like, but it's undoubtedly going to be a huge headache for mod makers.
Other mod makers are under no obligation to provide tech support for this mod or anyone using this mod, and this mod is not forcing itself into anyone's game directory without player intervention. Individual players can trivially make their own edits and break mods, and what this mod does is not a difference of kind if it does not claim that it is highly compatible. You could make a reasonable argument that it creates more tech-support work for other mod makers, but that seems like a logistical (forum moderation, perhaps) issue rather than a fundamental problem.

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-It breaks the number one ethics rule in any kind of modding, starsector modding or otherwise: Allow mods to OPT IN, don't force other modders to opt out or "code around" your mod. It makes it easier on both parties and helps with bug hunting. And by the looks of it, I'm not even seeing a way to opt out either...
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- As Midnight said, it is ethically *highly* frowned upon to create work for other modders.
Citing "ethics" here is a long stretch for the above reasons, and I wager you know that and you are using the word in a more discipline-specific sense.

Some of this reeks a little of the same smell from that thread for xenoargh's balance mod, where much of the behavior and tone by respondents was frankly disgraceful for a community for a game that benefits greatly from different mod options. Assuming that individual players ("fools") can't be responsible about using mods by default is rather denigrating and pretentious, and in any case, it is not your business how others choose to play a singleplayer game with no scoreboard or competitive element, especially one where mods and base content are open in structure and easily modifiable by the end user. But it is also not anyone's obligation to support people who can't be responsible with using mods.

All that aside, I do think that there is an unsolved issue for authors that would rightfully like to hide some of the content in their mod, exert some control over how the individual mod is played, or discourage people from peeking into the files and ruining the well-crafted surprises (I regret looking at the Blade Breaker content and generation stuff before having experienced it in-game, for example). It would be nice if there was an idiomatic or officially supported way to do this. That's a separate question from whether this mod should be on this board. This one probably does warrant an incompatibility notice, though.


Regarding the mod itself:

I think it is a little bit too easy gameplay-wise, since money is so easy to get and the fleets aren't all that hard. It might be more fun if the trigger was something more difficult or fun but still more generatable by the player, like making it loot remnant fleets with custom compositions that require specialist fleets or are super difficult or something. It makes stuff too accessible for me to keep playing with it on.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 04:27:18 PM by LB »
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2019, 04:31:01 PM »

I think the mod should definitely exist; that's why I would like tools to control the way my content interacts with it. It's very cool, and when revised I'm looking forward to thinking up ways to make it even more fun on my end. It's just, in current form, a huge problem for anybody trying to control access to specific blueprints, hulls, and weapons for gameplay purposes.

Mods for singleplayer games are opt-in; each player is responsible for managing how they want to play their own game, and even "ruin" their experience from your subjective perspective if they choose to, provided they don't try to blame everyone else.

Please, by all means, tell me how we stop them from blaming everyone else. I just had someone in my thread, whining about a core feature of a vanilla slot type, as though I personally had prevented it from working the way they wanted on a specific weapon. It's easy to say that's no big deal when you personally don't get the messages, the anger, and the bogus bug reports.

Meso can be a little bit harsh, even disciplinarian in his approach, but he's basically correct to cite modding 'ethics' here. It's rude to break things that other people have made, just like it's rude to kick over sand castles on a playground when you're a little kid. Xenoargh kicked over some sand castles, and if the response was pretty kindergarten so was the lesson being imparted; 'don't break other people's things, especially if they ask you not to'.

I think enforcing it in any way, even social censure, is a lost cause, but I don't think it's a complete waste of time to ask people who make mods that have wide-ranging effects on core gameplay systems to think carefully about how they do that. I think we could stand to remember that most people who do this stuff are a lot better intentioned than Xenoargh is when we respond, but the problem is real for people who create mods that rely partly or wholly on hidden content.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2019, 05:39:41 PM »

@ LB

All I was doing was recommending the best practice, if he decided to not heed the advice given by me and others? All I would do is create a hard incompatibility and get on with my life. I think you are looking way too hard at what I was saying while at the same time not hard enough, I even said if he wanted to stay the course of the original plan? *The hard incompatibility is exactly what I would have done*, and would have been the best practice I could enact from my end. It was a courtesy extended to him, talking about this from my years of modding experience and he was under no obligation to follow the advice given. Just like I am under no obligation to *not* write hard incompatibility into my mods for the mods that break them.


Straticus, thank you and I intend to whitelist *some* but not all of my content for your mod :)

LB

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2019, 05:53:25 PM »

There's no need to expend effort stopping them, you just choose to not pay them any attention and not let them bother you. But that sort of stoic doctrine seems unpopular nowadays and admittedly I've never been able to convince anyone that hasn't already had lots of practice following it. I guess on a forum there are logistical problems too.

I don't think the sand castle simile applies well, since it is still up to people whether they want to install his mod and presumably xenoargh is not going out of his way to make people install it. On the other hand if it advertised or implied high compatibility then that would be bad manners (I haven't looked). I am not familiar with the history so perhaps I am not qualified to comment more on it.

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I think enforcing it in any way, even social censure, is a lost cause, but I don't think it's a complete waste of time to ask people who make mods that have wide-ranging effects on core gameplay systems to think carefully about how they do that.
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All I was doing was recommending the best practice
You are right, and that is fine. But conveying it more courteously will only make it more convincing, and can be done just as succinctly.

But now I am splitting hairs. Looking forward to the update.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 05:55:37 PM by LB »
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TheWetFish

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2019, 06:46:45 PM »

Many pertinent points are already being addressed, let's also consider some other aspects that might otherwise be missed.

Can we have optional per blueprint challenge or reward modifiers?

For example an optional override value on the amount of challenge that a particular blueprint reward induces?

Another optional factor may be to restrict the maximum scope of rewards per challenge, such as specifying a cap on how many blueprints can concurrently drop from the same mod within the same single combat reward pool.
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Katsumi

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2019, 10:27:44 PM »

I think the mod should definitely exist; that's why I would like tools to control the way my content interacts with it. It's very cool, and when revised I'm looking forward to thinking up ways to make it even more fun on my end. It's just, in current form, a huge problem for anybody trying to control access to specific blueprints, hulls, and weapons for gameplay purposes.

Mods for singleplayer games are opt-in; each player is responsible for managing how they want to play their own game, and even "ruin" their experience from your subjective perspective if they choose to, provided they don't try to blame everyone else.

Please, by all means, tell me how we stop them from blaming everyone else. I just had someone in my thread, whining about a core feature of a vanilla slot type, as though I personally had prevented it from working the way they wanted on a specific weapon. It's easy to say that's no big deal when you personally don't get the messages, the anger, and the bogus bug reports.

Meso can be a little bit harsh, even disciplinarian in his approach, but he's basically correct to cite modding 'ethics' here. It's rude to break things that other people have made, just like it's rude to kick over sand castles on a playground when you're a little kid. Xenoargh kicked over some sand castles, and if the response was pretty kindergarten so was the lesson being imparted; 'don't break other people's things, especially if they ask you not to'.

I think enforcing it in any way, even social censure, is a lost cause, but I don't think it's a complete waste of time to ask people who make mods that have wide-ranging effects on core gameplay systems to think carefully about how they do that. I think we could stand to remember that most people who do this stuff are a lot better intentioned than Xenoargh is when we respond, but the problem is real for people who create mods that rely partly or wholly on hidden content.

Why do you want to control the way people play their own games? If folks want to download Dassault-Mikoyan and play it "as it was meant to be played," that's fine. But if they want to break it wide open and mess around with all the fun toys without having to "earn them" first, that's their prerogative. Why in the world would you waste your time and effort trying to code your mod to prevent the specific features of another mod, like this one, from working, just to preserve YOUR vision of how someone else ought to play the game? It's ridiculous.

And, newsflash, this mod is less egregious in that regard than something like Console Commands.
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Lupiscanis

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2019, 11:22:53 PM »


And, newsflash, this mod is less egregious in that regard than something like Console Commands.

I agree. This isn't to disparage Console Commands - it's an excellent mod. This is a single player game that you play in the way you deem fit. Once someone downloads a mod, there's little you can do to stop them tinkering with it as they want. If people want to do something, they'll find a way.

And I'm sorry, but you're never going to make everyone happy - just look at how many people spam threads with 'is this updated yet?' (not just this game either) as soon as an update comes out. Some people will just never be pleased with the free content that hard working modders provide.
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Katsumi

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2019, 11:55:32 PM »


And, newsflash, this mod is less egregious in that regard than something like Console Commands.

I agree. This isn't to disparage Console Commands - it's an excellent mod. This is a single player game that you play in the way you deem fit. Once someone downloads a mod, there's little you can do to stop them tinkering with it as they want. If people want to do something, they'll find a way.

And I'm sorry, but you're never going to make everyone happy - just look at how many people spam threads with 'is this updated yet?' (not just this game either) as soon as an update comes out. Some people will just never be pleased with the free content that hard working modders provide.

Oh, yeah, I use Console Commands all the time. It's a great mod. Use it to refresh markets until I can buy a Pandemonium (or just give myself the damn hull, if I'm feeling frustrated), because I'll be damned if I've ever seen one in the wild more than once in over 200 hours of playing.

Anyways, I think Vesperon Combine is a fine mod concept. Having a blacklist for other modders is a courtesy to other modders that Straticus should feel free to extend or not. If he does, it's because they're courteous and considerate, but by no means should it be a requirement. Because this is, at its core, something of a "cheat" mod. The whole point is to make it easier to acquire things than they usually are. To force him to cater to other modders that want to restrict other people from having easy access to their stuff goes against the whole spirit of this thing.

Look, Soren, MidnightKitsune, MesoTronik... I get it. Your mods are your babies. You've put tons of time and effort and frustration into crafting them, and you're proud of what you built, and I know you just want people to get the most enjoyment out of them that they can. But everyone has different tastes, different thresholds of frustration, different ways they value their time. You have to understand, you put your stuff out there for everyone to freely use, and if people want to cheat and use it in ways that you didn't intend, that's their right. To try and force them otherwise just comes off as egotistical bullying. You've been belligerent, bossy, harsh, and unfair, and frankly I'm appalled that all of you, who have created so much and added such value to this community, would treat a first time modder like Straticus in this way. I understand your concerns, but you need to be way more supportive and constructive if you want to nurture the development of new modders and keep this community healthy.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.9a] Vesperon Combine 1.0.0 - 13/01/19
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2019, 12:40:00 AM »

If a mod is actively conflicting with most other mods, it is as good as dead. There is not problem if you want to break your game by tinkering with mods, but the default behavior should be one that compliment the base game and other mods, not break them.

Your assumption is that modders will heavily restrict their content, and I can garantee you that you are mistaken.

A whitelist isn't just a courtesy: it ensure the maximum compatibility with other mods, while giving players the option to tinker with the mod to their specific tastes. That is actually the most versatile option and the one that requires the least amount of work for everyone, modders and players alike.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 12:52:50 AM by Tartiflette »
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