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Author Topic: Are Black Holes too forgiving?  (Read 12208 times)

RawCode

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2019, 12:31:28 AM »

Quote
you don't use strafe movement and instead drift into position to flank ships
Woot?
Well, i can't claim that nobody use this for flanking and piloting ships in overall, but, just holding shift enable "arcade" mode.
And small ships have same (max) speed when moving in any direction, including backwards, larger ships are not designed for flanking and still have same speed in each direction.

Reason to disable arcade move for in system navigation, especially if you dare to enter system with black hole is questionable.
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From a Faster Time

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2019, 02:37:08 AM »

Quote
you don't use strafe movement and instead drift into position to flank ships
Woot?
Well, i can't claim that nobody use this for flanking and piloting ships in overall, but, just holding shift enable "arcade" mode.
It's situational, strafe movement(holding down shift) has a time and a place and not using it also has a place and time.
And small ships have same (max) speed when moving in any direction, including backwards, larger ships are not designed for flanking and still have same speed in each direction.
Indeed it has the same max top speed in any direction but the acceleration in any given direction is not the same. Strafe is usually the most precise while non-strafe is usually the fastest.
Reason to disable arcade move for in system navigation, especially if you dare to enter system with black hole is questionable.
Indeed it is questionable, which is why I brought it up. In theory it could be changed to be a bit more immersive/interactive, or it could create just extra hassle for people that nobody wants, while at the same time taking up dev time. I believe I mentioned that in the very first post. Still the current system is okay, but not great so I though that discussing a better option might give some food for though and maybe something better will come out of it...maybe.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2019, 06:00:22 AM »

Anyway, combat is a minigame too, and it's too aged and broken by performance limitations to really be the heart of the game. So more stuff in campaign is good.

Combat is also meant to be the heart of the game as per Alex's own stated goals: though there are other ways to play, the game revolves around combat and how to make it interesting/attractive for the player.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorial_intent#Literary_theory
What Alex intended matters less than what the game as produced actually is. Anyway, probably grist for another thread of its own.

Quote
In essence, I'm not entirely disagreeing. Just that the rewards near black holes would need to justify the increased level of danger (risk/reward balance)

Yea. Well, the economy and scarcity levels of the game are totally out of whack-- players can easily gather up tonnes of rare items and find 100s of ships just lying around the galaxy (or buy them for one mission's worth of cash), and achieve absurd levels of power in excess of every faction in the game within relatively few hours of play.

The difficulty curve is broken. One component of fixing it could be to make black holes serve a purpose besides window dressing, by making them more dangerous and more rewarding, by concentrating drops of some rare items near them.

It also would make sense to add some campaign abliities/hullmods that allow the player to take advantage of the relativistic effects and outlier physics near blackholes in order to synthesize some useful materials like transplutonics or whatever.
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RawCode

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2019, 10:17:52 PM »

it's very difficult to make black hole system "more rewarding" and at same time, not making all other systems useless and inferior.

who cares about exploring galaxy, when entering black hole system is guaranteed hoard of rare loot?
who cares about dangerous black holes, when flying around safe nebula is almost guaranteed some rare loot?
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nb8

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2019, 09:33:12 PM »

we already have horrible neitron star
we already have the worst thing that happened to the startsector - damn warp storms
I completely disagree with topic starter
It’s not necessary to add even more horrible events to the game, the game is already unpleasant to fly, or at least make them optional.

P.S. But of course it’s worth the work, I don’t know, maybe it's because of the mods, but I colonized the black hole, there is only 100% hazard rating
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RawCode

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2019, 11:03:40 PM »

colonies on non primary stars, including black holes, is known bug
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From a Faster Time

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2019, 05:06:05 AM »

we already have horrible neutron star
we already have the worst thing that happened to the startsector - damn warp storms
I completely disagree with topic starter
It’s not necessary to add even more horrible events to the game, the game is already unpleasant to fly, or at least make them optional.

P.S. But of course it’s worth the work, I don’t know, maybe it's because of the mods, but I colonized the black hole, there is only 100% hazard rating
Spoiler
[close]
But neutron stars are fun!
But hyper space storms are fun, you can surf them for added speed.
And black holes are rare it's not like you would be dealing with them all the the time?

P.S colonized black hole is
Spoiler
racist
[close]

colonies on non primary stars, including black holes, is known bug

Too bad, I find the idea of colonizing stars/black holes to be pretty cool concept, if you can then have special hull mods (like solar shielding) for your personal fleet and your colony fleet in general, it could be an interesting tactic for colonys defence
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RedHellion

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2019, 05:35:09 PM »

Anyway, combat is a minigame too, and it's too aged and broken by performance limitations to really be the heart of the game. So more stuff in campaign is good.
Combat is also meant to be the heart of the game as per Alex's own stated goals: though there are other ways to play, the game revolves around combat and how to make it interesting/attractive for the player.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorial_intent#Literary_theory
What Alex intended matters less than what the game as produced actually is. Anyway, probably grist for another thread of its own.

But the point is, Alex is going to keep developing the game in that direction. It's not a completed work yet, so saying "authorial intent is irrelevant" while the author is still working and changing this game is at best judging an as-yet incomplete work as if it was completed. Similar to commenting "don't buy, game unfinished" on clearly-labelled alpha/beta/early-access titles.

Yea. Well, the economy and scarcity levels of the game are totally out of whack-- players can easily gather up tonnes of rare items and find 100s of ships just lying around the galaxy (or buy them for one mission's worth of cash), and achieve absurd levels of power in excess of every faction in the game within relatively few hours of play.

The difficulty curve is broken. One component of fixing it could be to make black holes serve a purpose besides window dressing, by making them more dangerous and more rewarding, by concentrating drops of some rare items near them.

It also would make sense to add some campaign abliities/hullmods that allow the player to take advantage of the relativistic effects and outlier physics near blackholes in order to synthesize some useful materials like transplutonics or whatever.

None of which I disagreed with - the game isn't finished and still needs balancing especially regarding colonies, and I don't see how the first paragraph is on-topic with the danger/difficulty of black holes - and actually in essence your last two paragraphs say the same thing I did but with specific examples of how the reward could be increased to justify the added risk.

But neutron stars are fun!

I would say neutron stars are an interesting feature, but they need a way for you to tell (before entering the system and getting screwed) where the neutron jets are at any given time. Or at least whether they're currently on top of a given jump point at a given time.

colonies on non primary stars, including black holes, is known bug
Too bad, I find the idea of colonizing stars/black holes to be pretty cool concept, if you can then have special hull mods (like solar shielding) for your personal fleet and your colony fleet in general, it could be an interesting tactic for colonys defence

Well, then I hope you're not too disappointed when it gets patched out? It's terrible for balance and nonsensical at best. Maybe if it was left in as an easter egg, but they had a 400%-500% hazard rating.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 05:38:46 PM by RedHellion »
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From a Faster Time

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2019, 12:51:55 AM »

Well, then I hope you're not too disappointed when it gets patched out? It's terrible for balance and nonsensical at best. Maybe if it was left in as an easter egg, but they had a 400%-500% hazard rating.
Something like that....I don't think it should be possible regularly, but lets say 1 colony on a star or black hole, does have a certain allure to it, as an easter egg.
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RawCode

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2019, 02:52:04 AM »

this wont fit "no stupid humor" + "no magic" concepts of the game.

personally, i would like to see additional significant penalties for colonies on non habitable worlds, including significant limits on max colony size (and industry slots) on "bad" planets.

it's immersion breaking to have large population on planets of "crematoria" type.
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From a Faster Time

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2019, 03:14:41 AM »

this wont fit "no stupid humor" + "no magic" concepts of the game.
personally, i would like to see additional significant penalties for colonies on non habitable worlds, including significant limits on max colony size (and industry slots) on "bad" planets.
it's immersion breaking to have large population on planets of "crematoria" type.
So I'll ask again. Why. so. serious? https://imgur.com/jHo1wZE
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Megas

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2019, 07:06:07 AM »

I would like some non-habitables to be colony viable, if only because bombing a habitable planet (even a single tac bomb) adds pollution, and if factions in later releases decide to bomb your defenses, then having a few low hazard non-habitables like a 125% barren-desert or even 150% barren world or gas giant to place a few industries could be useful.  (In my current game, I found few such decent non-habitable worlds, except I do not need to colonize them due to a glut of good 100% worlds, plus a pair of 75% Terrans and a 125% high gravity Terran with all of the resources and in the same system as one of the 75% Terrans.)

I like so-called rare stuff being easily found, the more, the better (as long as it is not all pirate/ludd packs and corrupted nanoforges).  Means less magic-find raids at core worlds.  I want to produce my own stuff, which as the main reason why I want colonies.

Colonizing a star seems too crazy, like Looney Tunes crazy.
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From a Faster Time

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2019, 07:44:22 AM »

Colonizing a star seems too crazy, like Looney Tunes crazy.
Why, more crazy than traveling space, lasers, flying a chunk of metal through the air, teleportation, phasing into different space? I am not saying literally anything goes, but where exactly do you draw the line of science fiction and why? Because Dyson Sphere is a thing in science fiction.
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Retry

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2019, 08:21:29 AM »

Colonizing a star seems too crazy, like Looney Tunes crazy.
Why, more crazy than traveling space, lasers, flying a chunk of metal through the air, teleportation, phasing into different space? I am not saying literally anything goes, but where exactly do you draw the line of science fiction and why? Because Dyson Sphere is a thing in science fiction.
We can already travel in space.  The Hyperspace thing is a necessary game mechanic to make the universe work, in a sense.
We already have lasers, we just haven't weaponized them.
Teleportation and "phase-space", I suppose we can't say 100% they don't exist in any phase whatsoever, and they're there for a game mechanic to show off the capabilities of high-tech anyways.
Dyson Spheres are about building a megastructure around a sun to harness its energy, not about colonization.
I cannot continue to exist near the surface of the sun as an intact human being.  I would not even be fortunate enough to continue to exist as a liquid.
Not a single building material we have is a solid at the temperature of the surface of the sun.  Most of them aren't even liquid.  Tungsten is one exception as it's barely a liquid at that temperature, but that'd vaporize too if the sun was just a bit hotter, not even 100K hotter.

That's just heat, I'm not even going to mention the crushing surface gravity.
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iamseron

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2019, 08:53:32 AM »

I agree with the initial suggestion that black holes be deadly. It isn't like you are springing an unexpected trap on the players if falling into a black hole is deadly. Implying that you would be is disingenuous. I'm pretty sure it is well known that things generally don't come back out of black holes.

The real danger here is to the AI which doesn't seem to be able to navigate already as-is. This could possibly corrected by just adding a behaviour to have AI fleets avoid the vicinity of black holes at all cost unless they were going in for a specific reason (maybe to resupply a base in orbit). Does the AI do any better at navigating neutron stars?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 09:26:06 AM by iamseron »
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