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Author Topic: Are Black Holes too forgiving?  (Read 12209 times)

From a Faster Time

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Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« on: January 03, 2019, 02:14:17 PM »

Vid related with some explanation in the description.
In short, one would expect black holes to be very dangerous with people wanting to avoid the center at all cost.
In reality they are so forgiving that being at the center has no additional effect and escaping a blackhole is childs play. No sense of danger, no skill required.
Would making them more skill based and more punishing only add hassle, or would some people appropriate the added tension?


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Euphytose

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2019, 02:36:10 PM »

What's the name of the first track?
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RedHellion

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2019, 04:19:43 PM »

In short, one would expect black holes to be very dangerous with people wanting to avoid the center at all cost.
In reality they are so forgiving that being at the center has no additional effect and escaping a blackhole is childs play. No sense of danger, no skill required.
Would making them more skill based and more punishing only add hassle, or would some people appropriate the added tension?

I mean, they do absolutely devour supplies when you get anywhere near the middle, and though it's not hard to get back out you'll definitely have been penalized for doing so. What would you suggest to make them more "skill-based and punishing", and why do you feel it's necessary? It's not like there are any insane advantages to be gained by going black-hole-diving, assuming Alex eventually patches out black hole colonies (not very familiar with them myself).

If they were made a major threat without any major upside being added (it's not like black hole systems are usually populated with many or really rare planets, or things you can't find elsewhere), people would just avoid them entirely. In-system terrain of a system that you don't have to jump into in the first place is entirely avoidable.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 04:21:25 PM by RedHellion »
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RawCode

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2019, 06:33:40 PM »

read this
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrialAndErrorGameplay

such "things" are not fun, not skill based and does not make game any better.
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From a Faster Time

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2019, 01:30:12 AM »

I mean, they do absolutely devour supplies when you get anywhere near the middle,
Indeed it does have a downside right now, but the issue is that since it's so easy to avoid it through either using emergency burn.
and though it's not hard to get back out you'll definitely have been penalized for doing so.
Without emergency burn, yes, with emergency burn, I would say there is hardly any penalty.
What would you suggest to make them more "skill-based and punishing"
That is a good question. In essence I think the black hole should feel more dangerous, more tense of a situation, and less of a slap on the wrist with numbers that you can avoid in many different ways.
How to achieve that?
1:There needs to be real danger, the center of the black hole should incur heavy punishments so that players want to avoid it at all costs, not game over per say but anything from say straight up damage to ships, to losing a ship to game over(though this last one is only okay with either rouge-like games or if somebody uses save games)
2:Player should be aware of the danger and it should be clear they are heading for it. I would make the gravity well of the black hole bigger and scale gradually. So players would feel the tugging of the black hole from far away and gradually see it's effects increase as they get closer, or get pulled closer. Slow build up and display of increasing gravity builds anticipation and tread. Additionally if you add a sound effect of a alarm bleeping with increased frequency/intensity as you get closer to the black hole can also help players be aware of the danger and tread it. Example: 3:Player should ideally have a skill based option on how to navigate near black holes. Planing a trajectory to go near a juicy station and then spiraling out of there. If you look at the example video given at the start of the thread, I believe it gives a decent idea of how it should/could look like. If the center does real damage, but it's easy enough to avoid the center, just not the gravity well, then players in theory should have a moment of tension where they try to get their way out. Also supply drain should be reduced in this case, so players have more time to get out and only getting punished if they go through the center by being very careless or giving up.
You can test it in game with entering the black hole area using sustained burn. Try to avoid the center at all cost and using only sustained burn, not active burn or normal flight, try to spin out of the black hole. You notice that it takes some effort but is possible consistently.
Naturally the fleet top speeds and acceleration would have to be looked at in proportion to the black hole gravity tugging effect.
, and why do you feel it's necessary? It's not like there are any insane advantages to be gained by going black-hole-diving, assuming Alex eventually patches out black hole colonies (not very familiar with them myself).
For two reasons, one is that any rewards put near a black hole will be more of an adventure to claim. Something you think about and prepare for instead of it being just another case of "use emergency burn and no thrill". Second reason is that it makes the world feel more diverse and dangerous. I am speaking purely from my point of view, but you may share this outlook:"I don't want to feel the same thread level near a black hole that I feel in a hyperspace storm, or normal space, or while shopping near a colony". Different thread levels give variety and contrast.
If they were made a major threat without any major upside being added (it's not like black hole systems are usually populated with many or really rare planets, or things you can't find elsewhere), people would just avoid them entirely.
Partially covered above, but yes you are right, people would avoid black holes unless there is a reason to be there. Which leads to either people hunting for research stations or other rewards near it. Or avoiding it. But again, is black holes really something you should sneeze at? Should you really feel like "yeah what ever". The fact you can just use emergency burn and fly  directly through it kinda makes it feel like...like a joke.

read this
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrialAndErrorGameplay

such "things" are not fun, not skill based and does not make game any better.
I though somebody might have your opinion, which is why I asked in the first place.
"Fun" is different for different people so I doubt you can claim it's not fun, though you can certainly claim it's not fun for you.
My idea is skill based as it's more up to the individual player to escape, rather than pressing emergency burn and ignoring it entirely, or just using normal burn and clicking outside. Right now the player isn't involved at all.


Note to Alex: I realize this is development time for something people might not need or want and thus it might be a waste of your time and effort. Definitely not a priority.  Just the black holes right now lack that umpf that one could expect from something so dangerous.
I suggest taking some supplies and a fleet with 8 burn and trying it out on a black hole using sustained burn to see if it has any merit to it as shown in my original videos post.


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SCC

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2019, 01:48:11 AM »

Considering that AIs already have issues getting out of black holes, I doubt they'll become more dangerous.

From a Faster Time

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2019, 01:56:58 AM »

Considering that AIs already have issues getting out of black holes, I doubt they'll become more dangerous.
Didn't do any tests on AI. Was coming at this from a purely players perspective. But yeah, that does complicate things.
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RawCode

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2019, 02:12:30 AM »

I have better option, let's go up to eleven and add minigame for blackhole escape, as we gone to eleven, this should be racing minigame!
It will be perfectly skill based, based on racing minigames skill!

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From a Faster Time

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2019, 02:15:42 AM »

I have better option, let's go up to eleven and add minigame for blackhole escape, as we gone to eleven, this should be racing minigame!
It will be perfectly skill based, based on racing minigames skill!
why waste your time and not just call me a *** and be done with it?
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RawCode

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2019, 03:37:36 AM »

I have better option, let's go up to eleven and add minigame for blackhole escape, as we gone to eleven, this should be racing minigame!
It will be perfectly skill based, based on racing minigames skill!
why waste your time and not just call me a *** and be done with it?

just explain what kind of "skill" this will use and other applications of said "skill" for rest of the game.
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From a Faster Time

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2019, 05:11:33 AM »

just explain what kind of "skill" this will use and other applications of said "skill" for rest of the game.
Is your main claim that my proposed idea doesn't use any form of player skill and that's why it shouldn't be put into the game?
Or is the claim that it does require skill from the player but it's too specific and you would not use it anywhere else in the game?
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2019, 05:37:52 AM »

Might be a good idea. If you'd read his (rather unnecessarily) long post, he said he wanted some basic orbital mechanics for navigating near to black holes, kinda like orbital slingshotting and so forth I suppose. Basically necessitating some planning for your flight path to get near a black hole.

If the procedural generation tends to place high value derelicts and research stations near black holes, they should be a little challenging and dangerous to get to, besides just losing supplies if you touch the hole. Not to mention the possibility that modders could add mechanics and abilities allowing the player to synthesize various goods while near a black hole, further incentivizing players for going near them.

More stuff to do in the campaign layer is a good thing. The deft click-work used to maneuver your fleet through the orbital challenge to a research station near a black hole is roughly the same skills you use to hide in landscape, sneak past enemy patrols to get to a hypergate while running dark, etc.

Everyone here think it's brilliant rhetoric to say "you're asking for a minigame!" since its an orthodoxy of these forums that "minigame bad." But in this case it's not a minigame. Anyway, combat is a minigame too, and it's too aged and broken by performance limitations to really be the heart of the game. So more stuff in campaign is good.
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RedHellion

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2019, 11:41:17 AM »

Might be a good idea. If you'd read his (rather unnecessarily) long post, he said he wanted some basic orbital mechanics for navigating near to black holes, kinda like orbital slingshotting and so forth I suppose. Basically necessitating some planning for your flight path to get near a black hole.

I could see this being more of a thing if systems (and thus black holes) weren't entirely separate areas of terrain from the hyperspace map. By both common sense and current implementation, there's almost nothing in black hole systems beyond the occasional research station that would require you to deftly maneuver around a black hole: no patrols/pirates to avoid (and they would get killed by the black hole on their own anyway if it was made much more dangerous, or avoid it entirely themselves out of caution), no rare resources floating/generated by black holes, no "wormhole" mechanics to instantly travel across the sector. If they were present on the hyperspace map instead of in their own system and you could use said slingshot mechanics to outmaneuver pirates/patrols, slip through hyperspace storms without negative effects, speed up interstellar travel, etc, then I could see it being useful to make more interesting mechanics around them.

If the procedural generation tends to place high value derelicts and research stations near black holes, they should be a little challenging and dangerous to get to, besides just losing supplies if you touch the hole. Not to mention the possibility that modders could add mechanics and abilities allowing the player to synthesize various goods while near a black hole, further incentivizing players for going near them.

The problem is, they don't currently have anything super high-value other than the odd research station - and those can be found in quite a few non-black-hole systems as well. They'd need to have something super rare or only found in black hole systems to make it worthwhile if the difficulty of being near them was increased to the levels being suggested. Also, adding mechanics that have no use in the base game (the "it's for modders" argument) doesn't alone make the change a worthwhile use of development time. Extensibility yes, adding gameplay that nobody playing vanilla will probably interact with more than once is debatable at best imho.

Anyway, combat is a minigame too, and it's too aged and broken by performance limitations to really be the heart of the game. So more stuff in campaign is good.

Combat is also meant to be the heart of the game as per Alex's own stated goals: though there are other ways to play, the game revolves around combat and how to make it interesting/attractive for the player. More campaign stuff is good, I agree; just pointing out that saying "combat is a minigame and too broken/limited/old to be the heart of the game" is inherently incorrect.


In essence, I'm not entirely disagreeing. Just that the rewards near black holes would need to justify the increased level of danger (risk/reward balance), and it would also make more sense around all the other uses of black holes for maneuvering/navigation with that increased sense of danger if they (and their effects) were present on the sector/hyperspace map rather than just in their own system. If the danger level was increased without one or both of those changes, there would be no point and they would essentially just become "blank" systems that nobody bothers with.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 12:31:00 PM by RedHellion »
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RawCode

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2019, 12:21:10 PM »

just explain what kind of "skill" this will use and other applications of said "skill" for rest of the game.
Is your main claim that my proposed idea doesn't use any form of player skill and that's why it shouldn't be put into the game?
Or is the claim that it does require skill from the player but it's too specific and you would not use it anywhere else in the game?

your claim that your suggestion about "sudden genre change to angry birds" is skill based.
i strongly disagree with such statement, well, "ultra strongly disagree".
normally i just move along and do not post anything about subject i do not like, but this case is exception.

just in case, if you forgot, i will quote specific part of your post here:
Quote
My idea is skill based as it's more up to the individual player to escape

please explain, what exactly "skill" player will develop and how said skill fit into rest of the game.
and most important part, how many times player will be forced to reload?
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From a Faster Time

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Re: Are Black Holes too forgiving?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2019, 03:21:18 PM »

your claim that your suggestion about "sudden genre change to angry birds" is skill based.
Your right! Look at this shocking video footage that proves it, I mean, can anybody honestly say they can tell the difference?
i strongly disagree with such statement, well, "ultra strongly disagree".
normally i just move along and do not post anything about subject i do not like, but this case is exception.
So you are so irrationally angry at a forum post that you need to shitpost, got it.
What I don't understand if this is all therapeutic venting for you, why not just throw profanities at me and my mother and move on? Why even ask me to explain myself when it's obvious you are looking for things to be angry about?
please explain, what exactly "skill" player will develop
The skill is called "spacial thinking".
and how said skill fit into rest of the game.
You use spacial thinking when piloting any ship when you don't use strafe movement and instead drift into position to flank ships. You also use it when navigating hyperstorms in order to chain boosts, or to avoid going in the wrong direction. Similarly, visualizing and executing an orbit approach around a black hole with an escape vector is spacial thinking. This might not seem like a big thing, but realistically it's more interactive than pressing emergency burn, clicking on a research station and then clicking out.
and most important part, how many times player will be forced to reload?
Entirely depends on how it's implemented and what kind of punishment is involved.
For instance an option that is more interactive but low chance of having to reload:Only sustained burn allowed in black hole event horizon area, no additional supply cost while near a black hole, ship damage(like severe hyper storms) while the fleet bubble touches the black hole it self. Player is pressured  to avoid touching the black hole.
For instance an option that is more interactive but higher chance of reloading: Only sustained burn allowed in black hole event horizon area, supplies get drained just like they do now. Player is pressured to get out of the event horizon fast.
For instance an option that is more interactive but even higher chance of reloading: Only sustained burn allowed in black hole event horizon area, black hole destroys ships when touching the black hole with the fleet bubble.Player is pressured to avoid touching the black hole.
For instance an option to fuel your anger to keep you warm in those cold winter nights: Only sustained burn allowed in black hole event horizon area, if the fleet bubble touches the blackhole half of your system files get deleted along with the game, normal supply cost penalties applies while in the event horizon. Player is pressured to avoid touching the black hole and to get out of the event horizon fast. You clearly would love this one RawCode.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 03:23:21 PM by From a Faster Time »
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