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Author Topic: Idea to make Frigates Competitive  (Read 1384 times)

Deshara

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Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« on: December 25, 2018, 06:29:11 AM »

the Monitor is the only frigate that holds up in late-game battles. It occurs that if every frigate were given >1% hard flux discharge with shields up and 0-flux boost at >1% flux and destroyers given 1% hard flux dissipation and 0-flux at 1% flux the curve of usefulness would be flattened a little bit

edit: oh yeah and a fleet command skill that doubles this bonus in non-hullmod frigates, then triples it in destroyers and gives the 1% bonuses to Cruisers, and then in the final tier of the skill gives all frigates the ability to use all small weapons in point defense
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 06:48:06 AM by Deshara »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2018, 11:29:34 AM »

I dont think this is really the thing that makes the monitor viable. Hard flux dissipation let’s a ship with high flux avoid dropping shields while still reducing flux. This is helpful for the monitor because it has the fortress shield meaning it wants to leave shields up to tank huge amounts of damage and fortress shield generates hard flux also. It wouldn’t really do much for other frigates. Their problem is that their defenses get easily overwhelmed by large amounts of firepower (mostly because of low capacity and armor) meaning they tend to die easily. A little flux dissipation doesn’t do much about that, fortress shield is what solves that problem for the monitor.

That’s not to say that this would do nothing, but fortress shield and flak are what make the monitor so survivable, not a bit of hard flux dissipation.
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Megas

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2018, 11:34:44 AM »

I would use frigates in my primary fleet if they had more peak performance and my fleet had a bigger cap (at least 40 ships to match the enemy).  If some of my cruisers have peak performance problems in some endgame battles (due to how long fights are and how cowardly enemy can be at times), I would imagine my destroyers and frigates would probably be at critical if forced to fight in those battles.

Due to peak performance, cruisers are the smallest ships I use by endgame, except for Harbinger flagship.  Even then, most of the cruisers I use are carriers, and most warships I use are capitals.  If I need destroyer-grade ships, I bring and deploy one or two Falcons.  I do bring Tempest and Shepherd, but that is mostly for enabling pursuit and auto-resolve (Tempest) and for campaign bonuses (Shepherd).

If peak performance was longer and fleet cap was bigger, I probably would use a more balanced fleet than big-ship only fleet.

Occasionally, I may bring a small Tempest-only fleet if I need to build-up rep fast during system bounties.  Small group of Tempests will tear up smaller pirate fleets well enough.
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Deshara

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2018, 02:04:28 PM »

It wouldn’t really do much for other frigates.

then why is the hard flux dissipation & 0-flux boost the first combat skills I go for?
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Megas

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2018, 02:44:41 PM »

I do not know what good Helmsmanship 3 can do with only 1% limit (and carriers exceed that with fighters engaged).  I guess it is useful for beam boats and pure missileships (which I do not use).  Helmsmanship 3 appears to be a junk perk, waste of skill point.
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Histidine

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2018, 05:20:15 PM »

It wouldn’t really do much for other frigates.

then why is the hard flux dissipation & 0-flux boost the first combat skills I go for?
Why would we assume your skill choices are the optimal ones?
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Thaago

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2018, 08:27:15 PM »

This wouldn't help tbh - 1% hard flux dissipation is pretty trivial and the speed increase very situational.

Frigates will become viable if the role of fast skirmisher becomes useful. Attempts to boost their combat power are counterproductive because that will directly make all bigger ships obsolete.

Frigates are the dominant ship early game and in pursuit battles - I don't really see the need for them to be dominant late game.

Also, I'd say that Wolves, Omens, Tempests, Monitors, phase frigates, and probably another few I'm not thinking of are perfectly viable through the cruiser stage. Its only when finally capitals are slugging it out that they are less useful.
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TaLaR

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2018, 09:00:37 PM »

Officer and ship count limits. As long as these remain, AI piloted frigates will have no significant place in big late game battles.
Best you can do currently is Omen for distraction and PD-assist.
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Deshara

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2018, 10:59:43 PM »

TBC OP said >1%.
As in, all frigates have 2% AT LEAST
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Thaago

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2018, 01:35:30 PM »

They could have 10% and it both wouldn't help and would be a bad idea. Upping frigate combat power will never help the actual issues. (Which I do not think need to be helped at all - current frigate place in the game is A+ good.)
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Deshara

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2018, 07:02:57 PM »

They could have 10% and it both wouldn't help and would be a bad idea. Upping frigate combat power will never help the actual issues.

I feel like that'd be easily tested by someone with any talent in modding
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Sarissofoi

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2018, 01:06:14 AM »

Biggest problem with Frigates and to smaller extent with Destroyers are two things:
>CR
and
>limited officer number
also
>limited ship count to 30

Let be serious(and civilized at both time) for a moment when talking about CR. I( have mixed feeling about CR. I like when it grant bonuses when over 70%. I like when it grant penalty when under 70%. I completely hate how fast it runs out when runs  out peak time. Supplies cost are secondary complain but kind of annoying.
Frigates(unless some specialized ones) simply become useless in longer fights. I get that CR put limiter on kitting and end on battle time but I don't like it. It maybe necessary things when dealing with phase ships(the only ships that I am fine with CR running out fast) or with Pathers SO ships but in most cases its really hurt immersion and flow of battles.
>friendly reminder that I mostly play vanilla only scavenge  runs with sometimes limiting myself to specific ships types(like only low tech or only pirates etc) so my look at this things are fairly biased
So I have long nice battles and then they not so suddenly end when one side(or both) run out of CR and I have floating husks that malfunction over the battlefield. Sure I can withdraw my frigate son time and I get that is a some sort of anti stalling mechanics or safe guard but gods foe me who are not very good on combat and don't try to abuse or cheese it its sure bad.
Dunno about solution to this. Increasing peak time is one. Reducing(greatly) rate on which CR degrade is another. Maybe increasing penalty when ship is under 70%CR - so ships go to 0% very slow(maybe at different rate at specified numbers like high CR decrease relatively faster(still slow) than lower CR) but their combat stats decrease(rate of fire, mobility, flux efficiency both for shields and weapon usage(higher cost) so they are less combat effective but not to the point they just float malfunctioning all the time.

Officers.
They are real force multiplier in my games. Not only let me change ship behavior but also offer immense combat upgrades compared to no officer ship. Heck Combat readiness skill plus maybe missiles and weapon range one is good enough to make serious difference between them.
I really miss some sort of low level officers that would come with less max level but still offer some bonuses and personality. I mean vigilance with CR bonus and Missiles perk with caution or timid officer is much better than the one with not. Having unlimited officers up to 8 level(3 max skills) with ability to promote them to limited max 20 level ones would be great.

Limited ship count
Pretty obvious. Can't swarm enemy with frigates if you can't build swarm. can't even recall one wave to send another if you can't have enough ships(obviously thing to be done if you think about how CR work).

RawCode

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2018, 06:07:18 AM »

scaling safety override hullmod will solve issue somewhat, smaller ships should take less penalty, in other cases, only afflicator and tempest exists, rest is "vendor trash".
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Megas

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2018, 07:22:04 AM »

Ships smaller than cruisers simply do not have enough peak performance to last an endgame fight, with or without Safety Override.  I avoid Safety Override like the plague because of the peak performance cut.
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RawCode

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Re: Idea to make Frigates Competitive
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2018, 07:18:23 PM »

Ships smaller than cruisers simply do not have enough peak performance to last an endgame fight, with or without Safety Override.  I avoid Safety Override like the plague because of the peak performance cut.

frigates without SO do not have sufficient flux capacity to deal any real damage on they own and only can be used as support.

sadly, carriers with durable fighters provide much more support and carriers with interceptors provide much better point defence.

amount of viable and combat ready frigates very limited, universal use frigates are only tempest and afflictor, rest have narrow viable use range.
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