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Author Topic: Auto-Retreat and Map Zones  (Read 3699 times)

Thaago

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Auto-Retreat and Map Zones
« on: December 17, 2018, 07:52:05 PM »

[Edit] Retitled to reflect Alex's thoughts

Chasing ships along the map edge is incredibly boring and is one of the few things that truly breaks the current CR system. I propose that every ship that is forced off the map edge is auto-retreated.

If this is a ship that would otherwise immediately re-engage the player like a remnant or automated drone, make it self destruct.

This may seem a bit harsh, but imo the bad gameplay that comes from the map edge can only be solved by something drastic.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 09:00:23 PM by Thaago »
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Alex

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Re: Have every ship that hits the map edge auto-retreat
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2018, 07:58:54 PM »

FWIW, in the dev version, the map border is *much* more pronounced in terms of bouncing stuff back into the playing field - the "bounce" is both harder and starts before the visible map edge, rather than at it.

Edit: I should add, I totally get what you're saying here, when fights reach the map border, it's... not good. But auto-retreat is troublesome because it could be beneficial (unless it's for enemies only? which'd feel unfair) and "make it self destruct" would probably lead to weird "kite the enemy to the border and then get them to touch it" strategies.

Edit #2: One thing I've been thinking off, on the back-burner, is some sort of "victory point" system to replace current objectives with. It'd be more zone control than point control - maybe 1-3 zones, none of which being near the edges - which you win the battle automatically (forcing the enemy to retreat) if you control them for a fairly brief period. That would, in theory, ensure that borders come into play way less often, since whoever is at a border is going to lose if their opponent controls the center. But that wouldn't work well for remnant/derelict defenses, where the only win condition is complete destruction. Anyway, this is a bit theoretical at this point, just a possible idea I'm mulling over.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 08:10:01 PM by Alex »
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Thaago

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Re: Have every ship that hits the map edge auto-retreat
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2018, 08:07:31 PM »

The map edge is problematic enough that I prefer this, but I hope that will do it! : fingers crossed :
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Alex

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Re: Have every ship that hits the map edge auto-retreat
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2018, 08:10:27 PM »

(Added a couple of edits while you were replying, I think :))
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Thaago

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Re: Auto-Retreat and Capture Zones
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2018, 08:59:52 PM »

Ah, so I see! Hmmm... (retitled thread in case other people want to jump in)

Victory point/zone control: I can see that being a fun alternative combat that naturally combines well with stations and/or other exotic structures. The classic 'hold these points (stations) to charge the superweapon' is maybe a bit overdone, but could be fun for some fights. I think it naturally fits in with derelicts if they were labelled 'control nodes' or something similar, as derelicts are usually around probes etc.

Perhaps instead of forcing a retreat they give a stackable bonus to the side controlling them? For example, some "jamming relays" around the map. Controlling one gives some fraction of a point of ECM to the controlling side each second, and this is allowed to go beyond the normal maximum. The AI can check when they have a truly awful ECM gap and initiate a full retreat. For the player, I think if the notification is obvious (and perhaps with a "battlespace compromised, retreat!" popup) then there should be minimal confusion.

Different battles could have different zones, depending on whats going on in the campaign map. That said, I think standard battles should still be the most common variety.

Open question for stackable bonus zones: even or odd number of each type? I would say even, so that in a near tie scenario the battle stalls (and perhaps swings slowly back towards balance in a tie scenario... hmmm mechanics...)

This kind of stacking bonus also touches on some points made a while back on frigate viability; if capture points/zones/stations are more powerful, it makes more sense to skirmish on them.
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goduranus

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Re: Have every ship that hits the map edge auto-retreat
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2018, 03:02:09 AM »

some sort of "victory point" system
No! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

nomadic_leader

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Re: Auto-Retreat and Map Zones
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2018, 05:32:53 AM »

More differen combat will be good,  but the victory/zones system doesn't make any sense for almost all combats, particularly two fleets just meeting in space. Sure, you can add the rules and justify it with a hand wave, but it ought to be a last resort, because hand waves are for mediocre star trek episodes; making sense is better.

Here are a few random ideas:

-Buff giving ships as objectives. Instead of objectives or zones try to force combat into a certain shape, there should be ships with ECM/etc hullmods that provide buffs as good as objectives, but in a large area of effect zone (so people/AI won't hide them at the edge of the map). Yea, this takes away capturing, but capturing isn't that great. It does make defense more important. Perhaps the AI would have to be updated to really catch bullets for friendly ships marked with defense order. The current ECM mechanics aren't common or powerful enough to make those ships with ecm hullmods into defacto objectives.

Putting destroy-able, buff providing infrastructure on stations is also good. Combat with stations already is "zone of control combat" because in order to win the combat, you have to control the vulnerable areas around the station in order to a) defend it or b) destroy it. This is an example of a good way to do combat. You don't need arbitrary zones or victory points for stations/big things.

Round map Yea this won't solve a lot of issues, but at least there won't be corners.

rebalance all combat to be much more faster/destructive so there would be less slow chases along the map edge? e.g. instead of having 15 missiles that go really slowly across the map and do almost no damage individually, have 1 missile that goes really fast and does lots of damage? More Iaian M Banks and less pre WWI fleet combat.

Combat in the middle The map could be bigger, but both fleets should spawn closer to the middle, then have all edges be retreatable. But if the map is bigger, there could be more boring long chases.

classic no deployment choice option. Really, the map should be much bigger, and both fleets should spawn in their entirety with no option to hold ships back. This would create battle lines to protect freighters, etc, but probably the game performance can't handle it because of java being slow or whatever technical reason I don't know about.

Having all the edges be auto retreat zones in any case is probably good. Yea, it gets a bit awkward to decide what to do with all the ships that retreated/escaped, but maybe it's ok for the two fleets after combat to reappraise their respective numbers and decide whether to attack again or try to flee. But This might result in boring chain combats of you lose, you lose, you lose, you finally die.

Unless...

Have the campaign map keep iterating during combat so retreating ships form separate fleets  obviously it would iterate really slow. So that you could have ships retreat from combat and they'd form additional baby fleets that would fly away or do whatever and then you could regroup with them afterwards or summon them back to you with a sensor ping.

some kind of routing mechanic Like in dominions 5, where whenever a ship retreats by going to the edge of the map, it 'routes' and is automatically moved a certain distance away on the campaign map (based on burn speed). This is like the above somewhat.

Let's think up more ideas.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 05:36:17 AM by nomadic_leader »
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Auto-Retreat and Map Zones
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2018, 05:40:49 AM »

Another idea for a different kind of combat-

combat over salvage/derelict ships AI ships could also start salvaging on the campaign maps. And for the player/them it could take a day or two (progress bar like hacking nav beacons)  and during that time, if the salvaging fleet is attacked, that whole fleet will be deployed, so the attacker has a chance to attack their civilian ships. In debris fields debris will be on the map, or the derelicts will be floating around, and be destroy-able too, so you can destroy your enemy's derelict which would be sort of an objective. Or if you chase the enemy away, you get it instead.
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Megas

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Re: Auto-Retreat and Map Zones
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2018, 10:23:07 AM »

If the only penalty for the enemy obtaining victory point/zone is my fleet is forced to retreat, then it is only a penalty if I am forced to re-engage only because I lose more CR (and CR is barely tolerable as it is).  I am perfectly happy with the enemy forcing me to retreat if I did not want to fight in the first place.

Against the enemy, I would only try to obtain victory zone to force a retreat if that means I can auto-resolve their fleet into the ground.  If they simply re-engage, then it is a penalty for me because I burn more CR fighting them.  I would rather have my side claiming victory zone mean they cannot escape (i.e., arena lock or thunderdome), and claiming victory via menu means all enemy ships on the field die for free (like in auto-resolve).
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Auto-Retreat and Map Zones
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2018, 08:55:54 AM »

It's been suggested and debated before, but I still think some sort of pseudo infinite/looping battlefield would be the best way to solve border problems.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Auto-Retreat and Map Zones
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2018, 08:57:59 AM »

It's been suggested and debated before, but I still think some sort of pseudo infinite/looping battlefield would be the best way to solve border problems.

Can you give me an idea of how this would work?
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Wyvern

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Re: Auto-Retreat and Map Zones
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2018, 09:15:07 AM »

Toroidal Subspace Pockets!  Go off the left edge, you come back in from the right.  Go off the top, you come back in from the bottom.  ...Though that second would kinda mess with how retreating works, wouldn't it?
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Cyan Leader

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Re: Auto-Retreat and Map Zones
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2018, 10:06:28 AM »

It'd have to be totally reworked. Something like a ship only being able to retreat anywhere on the map but only if not under attack for a number of seconds and then burning out (and disappearing once far enough). Another idea, which I prefer more, would be to have the ship stay still once ordered to retreat and charge their burn drives (just like how Sustained Burn works, consistency!) but take X% more damage while doing it and have their shields down. Maybe larger ships would take longer and such.

Just some ideas, I have no clue if they'd be preferable to what we have now or not.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Auto-Retreat and Map Zones
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2018, 08:29:53 AM »

It'd have to be totally reworked. Something like a ship only being able to retreat anywhere on the map but only if not under attack for a number of seconds and then burning out (and disappearing once far enough). Another idea, which I prefer more, would be to have the ship stay still once ordered to retreat and charge their burn drives (just like how Sustained Burn works, consistency!) but take X% more damage while doing it and have their shields down. Maybe larger ships would take longer and such.

Just some ideas, I have no clue if they'd be preferable to what we have now or not.

Ok... so you just "jump to hyperspace", rather than having to go to an edge of the map? This is a nice idea. The shields have to drop and the ship stands still a while before jumping. So this means instead of tedious "fleeing to the top of the map" retreat combats, the fleets could spawn closer to each other, and then they'd have to jump to hyperspace as they can. or maybe if another ship got near a jumping ship, it interrupts their jump drive? Or there could be special interdiction ships that could block hyperspace jumping in a radius around itself?

But would this solve the problem of ships chasing each other to the end of the map and silly combats happening at the edges/corners?
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Auto-Retreat and Map Zones
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2018, 08:35:49 AM »

There would be no corners essentially if the battlefield looped or forever expanded. Besides all the technical issues and mechanic changes, a problem I see with this is that, at least personally, I use borders to corner kiters and it's very effective in reducing the frustration of chasing them. I wouldn't mind that being gone too much though because what bothers me the most is when I'm the one doing the kiting and, while spacing and having fun with the engagement, I eventually reach a wall and the AI just loses it, making the battle much easier than it should be.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 09:46:35 AM by Cyan Leader »
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