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Author Topic: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking  (Read 24628 times)

RawCode

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Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« on: December 16, 2018, 08:06:10 AM »

Well, entire game scaled to player level, as result, if you level up without getting new ships (or old ships), and especially if you level up non combat skills, game go harder and harder, hello oblivion in space.

Typical domain drone (not ship or carrier) that on level 1 throw bunch of dmod drones with faulty AI on level 15++ throw 8 cruiser drones in pristine condition with 20++ escort ships and best AI.
After some moment difference between different type of drone derelicts erased, both start to spawn drone deathball in pristine condition.

Dmods removed from all AI ships and replaced with officers, that unlimited for AI, especially noticable with luddic and pirate deathballs, that got officer for every ship after ~20th level of player.

Issue is downward spiral of leveling, after extermination of luddic space station deathball i got 11 levels instantly, from single combat (but this was really long combat) and lost "some" ships.
All quests, all bounties, all explorations miniquests, everything got adjusted for my "level", as result, game over, as there is no way to continue "frigate only" gameplay, and all "simple" content just phaseout from game entirely.

Such significant change of gameplay is immersion breaking, game should not break it's own lore and logic and give everyone ships in pristine condition just because player reached level X, same for officers and number of ships.
Entire game turned into deathball parade.

In "ships lost" part, i play ironman only and just accept defeat, as there is always way to recover, well, there is no way to recover after level X as there are no "easy" quests any more, and just moving around is pain, as all pirates and luds are deathballs now.


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Grievous69

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2018, 08:15:26 AM »

There are always survey and analyze missions available, those require only fuel unless you're unlucky and end up in a Remnant system, but even then you can sneak around if you just have frigates. Now, I'm really curious, how the hell did you beat a deathfleet AND a station with only frigates? I can't see how you would pull that off without cheating since higher levels (when you actually can afford a big fleet) require far more exp than in the beginning.
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Megas

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2018, 10:24:19 AM »

I do not think it scales by level anymore (which was absurd), but it scales by time, and they scale up too fast.  Jump straight from 50k to mostly 150k and up fleets just before a year passes.  Alex will do something about it.
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Alex

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2018, 10:50:01 AM »

Yeah, just confirming there is no level scaling.

Also, the number of officers in AI fleets is indeed limited to 10 (+1 for the commander), if you're seeing more than that in a single fleet, that's a bug.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2018, 01:15:01 PM »

Typical domain drone (not ship or carrier) that on level 1 throw bunch of dmod drones with faulty AI on level 15++ throw 8 cruiser drones in pristine condition with 20++ escort ships and best AI.
After some moment difference between different type of drone derelicts erased, both start to spawn drone deathball in pristine condition.
Domain drone fleets scale based on the number of domain drones you've salvaged, not your level. That little hyperwave pulse in the post-salvage description? That's an alarm, telling all the other domain drones to rev up their autofactories because there's a predator about.

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RawCode

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2018, 07:09:40 PM »

There are always survey and analyze missions available, those require only fuel unless you're unlucky and end up in a Remnant system, but even then you can sneak around if you just have frigates. Now, I'm really curious, how the hell did you beat a deathfleet AND a station with only frigates? I can't see how you would pull that off without cheating since higher levels (when you actually can afford a big fleet) require far more exp than in the beginning.

afflictor and tempest chain deploy (one ship at time), ludd ships that stay near station runout of CR and just swallow critical malfunctions doing nothing, preventing station from firing at you, as you can hide behind hulls from station fire and just score freeshots, as zero CR ships do not have shields or weapons.
and no, i not managed to finish station, as soon as i retreated from lone station (due to lack of CR), more deathballs spawned instantly and wiped my fleet.


Issue is not scaling itself, by level, time or amount of fleets destroyed, issue is overly agressive scaling, lone drones orbiting trash planet should not have deathball in pristine condition as guards.

And if taken amount of kills in account, it progress really fast from bunch of barely combat ready dmodded drones to pristine condition deathballs
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Thaago

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2018, 08:01:00 PM »

Ummm but lets be honest here. Practically no amount of derelicts can challenge even a token fleet. They work well as nice light challenges for exploration fleets, but short of the mothership and battleship any player with a destroyer should be able to kill 10:1 odds with ease.

There are always survey and analyze missions available, those require only fuel unless you're unlucky and end up in a Remnant system, but even then you can sneak around if you just have frigates. Now, I'm really curious, how the hell did you beat a deathfleet AND a station with only frigates? I can't see how you would pull that off without cheating since higher levels (when you actually can afford a big fleet) require far more exp than in the beginning.

afflictor and tempest chain deploy (one ship at time), ludd ships that stay near station runout of CR and just swallow critical malfunctions doing nothing, preventing station from firing at you, as you can hide behind hulls from station fire and just score freeshots, as zero CR ships do not have shields or weapons.
and no, i not managed to finish station, as soon as i retreated from lone station (due to lack of CR), more deathballs spawned instantly and wiped my fleet.


Issue is not scaling itself, by level, time or amount of fleets destroyed, issue is overly agressive scaling, lone drones orbiting trash planet should not have deathball in pristine condition as guards.

And if taken amount of kills in account, it progress really fast from bunch of barely combat ready dmodded drones to pristine condition deathballs

That sounds horrifically boring.
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RawCode

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2018, 09:31:09 PM »

it is not fun to fight space bullet spounges spawned in swarms every time you try to loot derelict.

some quests should remain easy and fast no matter what your level is.
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RawCode

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2018, 12:48:46 AM »

Code
			float limit = 300f;
if (Entities.DERELICT_SURVEY_PROBE.equals(type)) {
limit = 60;
} else if (Entities.DERELICT_SURVEY_SHIP.equals(type)) {
limit = 90;
} else if (Entities.DERELICT_MOTHERSHIP.equals(type) || Entities.DERELICT_CRYOSLEEPER.equals(type)) {
limit = 150;
}

well, it's actually not related to level directly, or time itself, but lack of "decay" or any kind of system difficulty offset, makes it looks like level scaling.

also logic behind scaling depend on amount of ships destroyed, it spawn more ships and destroying more ships result in more scaling, maxing scale is very very fast.
also it does not have type limiter, making attacks on drones massive "no", as this will increase power of "better" loot sources and make attacks on mothership and cryosleeper much harder

there is no logic behind this mechanic, it's immersion breaking to assume, that only player loot derelicts and everyone else just fly around doing nothing

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nomadic_leader

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2018, 04:52:01 AM »


well, it's actually not related to level directly, or time itself, but lack of "decay" or any kind of system difficulty offset, makes it looks like level scaling

Huh, didn't quite understand this or the code you posted. You mean it's related to the number of ships you, the player, have destroyed in the game?

Quote
there is no logic behind this mechanic, it's immersion breaking to assume, that only player loot derelicts and everyone else just fly around doing nothing

I agree with you there. It's a failure to create a world in which an early game player and a late-game player can both exist, and seek out meaningful challenges.

The conflicting, confused design goals of  the game may be to blame. It's sort of an open world game, and attracts a bunch of open world players who are disappointed with failures of immersion, and it's sort of a combat/ship collecting game, which attracts players who are disappointed with the open world stuff. Now it's sort of a strategy/colonizing game too.
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RawCode

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2018, 03:47:45 PM »

scaling should not punish player for playing.

i made testrun with drones, first 3 combats are okay, then instant jump to deathball with ships in perfect condition.
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Alex

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2018, 04:24:13 PM »

i made testrun with drones, first 3 combats are okay, then instant jump to deathball with ships in perfect condition.

It depends on how many derelict you've defeated so far, and is capped based on the derelict's size. For example, if you defeat the defenses of 10 survey probes in a row, you'll see a very gradual increase in strength for each. If you defeat the mothership, that'll cause a larger increase in strength across the board.

... which it sounds like you'd already figured out, based on your previous post?

and cryosleeper much harder

That is incorrect; the cryosleeper is not affected.


Huh, didn't quite understand this or the code you posted. You mean it's related to the number of ships you, the player, have destroyed in the game?

It's related to the number of derelict defenses you've defeated, specifically. As you defeat more, they spread the word and build up more drones using the resources available. That's what the "hyperwave signal" message is about.



Frankly, though, hmm. Derelicts - pristine or not, in large numbers or not (as Thaago already mentioned) - do not pose that much of a threat. And there's always probes and such that are entirely undefended. And there's a plethora of other ways to get back on your feet. Missions, bar events, rummaging through Remnant systems in stealth mode, and so on.

The state of the game world changes as the game goes on, you know? If you're knocked that far down and want *all* of the early-game options to be as effective as they were to begin with, then starting a new game is probably the way to go. Otherwise, again, there's a lot of options available, it's just not the same identical set as at the start of the game.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 04:32:30 PM by Alex »
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RawCode

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2018, 09:28:51 PM »

I try to "play" EA games without cheats and without reading sources\wiki\spoilers.
This about "feedback", at this moment game push player forward and does not care, is player ready or not.
Not really sandbox logic, but keep game interesting much longer.

This perfectly fine, if i can beat deathball with single frigate, i won't be happy with sudden degrated fleet.
Same for bounty quests and other content, it's just unfun to beat something, that can't fight back.

But situation changes moment you player got wiped, as there are no fun means of recovery, just moving around and taking 80k for scanning derelicts, without trying to loot said derelicts is not really fun.
Not fun at all, especially when you pooled everything into combat skills.

Some kind of difficulty decay if you left things alone will solve situation.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2018, 01:06:40 AM »


Frankly, though, hmm. Derelicts - pristine or not, in large numbers or not (as Thaago already mentioned) - do not pose that much of a threat. And there's always probes and such that are entirely undefended. And there's a plethora of other ways to get back on your feet. Missions, bar events, rummaging through Remnant systems in stealth mode, and so on.

The state of the game world changes as the game goes on, you know? If you're knocked that far down and want *all* of the early-game options to be as effective as they were to begin with, then starting a new game is probably the way to go. Otherwise, again, there's a lot of options available, it's just not the same identical set as at the start of the game.


Ok, I see what you mean. Yea maybe this case isn't such a big deal. Though I wouldn't want there to be too much level scaling in the game.
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diegoweiller

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2018, 04:11:29 AM »

Me think its good e.e its even dumb to just run over domain farming cores... this way you get progression at least. and i haven't seen so far an AI fleet i could not deal with...
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