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Author Topic: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking  (Read 24635 times)

Gotcha!

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2019, 01:07:07 PM »

Thanks for all your responses. It's nice to know that those gigantic pirate fleets will be a thing of the past (although I understand why the elite among you like the challenge ;)).

@goduranus: Yeah, I see you bragging about it everywhere on the forum. So I guess you're doing a great job spreading the word. :P
I've found some of these autonomous fighter things today, and they're quite a treat!
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Megas

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2019, 06:36:55 PM »

Part of the fix for less pirate ships is they get bigger ships instead of more ships (they should honor the 30 ship fleet cap per fleet)!  Pirates will get a capital ship of their own, a modified Atlas.  (Pathers will get a mod Prometheus.)
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Thaago

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2019, 06:54:13 PM »

Part of the fix for less pirate ships is they get bigger ships instead of more ships (they should honor the 30 ship fleet cap per fleet)!  Pirates will get a capital ship of their own, a modified Atlas.  (Pathers will get a mod Prometheus.)

I am looking forward to this very very much.
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RawCode

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2019, 10:41:33 PM »

they got special capital, there is blog post about it.
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Thaago

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2019, 11:19:50 AM »

With fewer frigates in the pirate fleets, my loadout choices are probably going to change. Right now I really like a dual phase lance Eagle as a mid game player flagship because it is so good at popping frigates - one burst from the autocannons with 50%+ misses followed by a lance shot will pop most pirate frigates in one go (and if not, they are overloaded and stripped of armor so the autocannons will finish them). When the pirates start bringing capitals I may need to change things up!

(Or I could just buy some torpedo bombers, that tends to work against capitals well enough.)
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goduranus

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2019, 12:09:30 AM »

How did you set up the dual phase lance Eagle? i find the Phase Lances too short ranged compared to autocannon, and enemies will just keep out of range. Did you have to put Advanced Optics on it?

Megas

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2019, 09:04:24 AM »

I would use only Phase Lance with Advanced Optics on Falcon or Eagle.  Because those are set far back from ballistics, I would consider using Arbalests instead of Heavy Autocannon, for the ranges to match better.  Of course, Heavy Autocannon has better DPS.  Then again, the flux spikes from Phase Lances would probably make the efficient Arbalest more appealing.
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Igncom1

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2019, 09:13:05 AM »

Even with a long range load out on the eagle/falcon, short ranged lances can be nice for finishing targets up close when knocked offline by kinetics. And with their speed they can easily pull it off whenever needed.
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Thaago

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Re: Talkin bout birds
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2019, 03:00:31 PM »

How did you set up the dual phase lance Eagle? i find the Phase Lances too short ranged compared to autocannon, and enemies will just keep out of range. Did you have to put Advanced Optics on it?

My current build is 3xAutocannons, 1xIon Beam, 2xPhase Lance, and 5xPd Lasers, Advanced Optics and ITU. When I first got the Eagle it was a lucky find when I was still using frigates (1D mod - Just less hull points, which is fantastic!) so was actually running Augmented Engines, DTC, 2xAutocanon and 1xHeavy Mortar to fight Pirates and Ludds (same beams, no advanced optics). Having 24 less OP (and no loadout design) made things a bit tight, but having a slightly under-powered Eagle running around at frigate speeds was actually really nice.

Advanced optics: TBH the phase lances don't need the range, but the PD lasers really want them! The Phase Lances are almost entirely finishers, so I won't even fire them unless shields are very stressed. The reason the Lances don't need the range is...

Even with a long range load out on the eagle/falcon, short ranged lances can be nice for finishing targets up close when knocked offline by kinetics. And with their speed they can easily pull it off whenever needed.

This! Even an Eagle can dart forward and 'pop' a high flux frigate or destroyer. Its a fantastic ship system for kinetics + lances: The enemy will come to you when they are low on flux, but it takes them a while to reverse course and get out of range. The system lets you get in during that transition and mess them up. The single Ion Beam helps also if it knocks out engines.

So I'm basically running the Eagle in two modes (I do this on a lot of my favorite ships, as I overgun almost always): 'Long' range consisting of the Autocannons and Ion Beam. Could switch to HVD's but I don't have the blueprints, and to be honest I prefer the DPS over the range. At long range the Eagle does quite reasonable anti-shield DPS, and the Ion forces the enemy to keep shields up or lose guns/engines. Then, if/when the enemy flux is high, I switch off the Ion Beam, move in on jets, and start cracking armor with the Phase Lances. Turning off the Ion Beam helps a lot with flux management (and I often turn the shield off now as well if the enemy has been suppressed enough to not be firing much).

I am considering dropping Advanced Optics again and changing the PD lasers to LRPD, but I really like the close in DPS for dealing with fighters so I've been holding off. Its not like the increased range on the phase lances (and Ion Beam) is bad its just not strictly needed.

I would use only Phase Lance with Advanced Optics on Falcon or Eagle.  Because those are set far back from ballistics, I would consider using Arbalests instead of Heavy Autocannon, for the ranges to match better.  Of course, Heavy Autocannon has better DPS.  Then again, the flux spikes from Phase Lances would probably make the efficient Arbalest more appealing.

Depends on how you want to fly it, but the key thing is that you aren't using the phase lances all the time - they are finishers and anti-fighter - so its ok to be overfluxed. The Eagle can handle 3x Autocannon + Ion Beam flux neutral, so when battering down the shields there isn't much need for greater efficiency. When firing the lances, in general you are dumping your flux reserve into a kill anyways (and you can safely vent much of the time, because phase lances will knock out guns very well on the second or third shot). I don't value range matching very much in mobile ships like Falcons and Eagles, though its a big concern on Dominators and Onslaughts.
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Megas

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Re: Talkin bout birds
« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2019, 06:37:23 PM »

Depends on how you want to fly it, but the key thing is that you aren't using the phase lances all the time - they are finishers and anti-fighter - so its ok to be overfluxed. The Eagle can handle 3x Autocannon + Ion Beam flux neutral, so when battering down the shields there isn't much need for greater efficiency. When firing the lances, in general you are dumping your flux reserve into a kill anyways (and you can safely vent much of the time, because phase lances will knock out guns very well on the second or third shot). I don't value range matching very much in mobile ships like Falcons and Eagles, though its a big concern on Dominators and Onslaughts.
Is this for playership only, does it include AI?  Whenever I give phase lance Eagles to AI, they just brawl and fire lances at every opportunity.  The AI overloads sooner or later because of flux spikes from phase lances.  Even worse if I combo them with needlers (which I did during 0.8 when needlers were more flux efficient).
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TaLaR

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2019, 12:47:36 AM »

Depends on how you want to fly it, but the key thing is that you aren't using the phase lances all the time - they are finishers and anti-fighter - so its ok to be overfluxed. The Eagle can handle 3x Autocannon + Ion Beam flux neutral, so when battering down the shields there isn't much need for greater efficiency. When firing the lances, in general you are dumping your flux reserve into a kill anyways (and you can safely vent much of the time, because phase lances will knock out guns very well on the second or third shot). I don't value range matching very much in mobile ships like Falcons and Eagles, though its a big concern on Dominators and Onslaughts.
Is this for playership only, does it include AI?  Whenever I give phase lance Eagles to AI, they just brawl and fire lances at every opportunity.  The AI overloads sooner or later because of flux spikes from phase lances.  Even worse if I combo them with needlers (which I did during 0.8 when needlers were more flux efficient).

AI manages it's flux only in sense of "too much flux, let's fire less" not "I want to drive enemy flux up with efficient kinetics, then finish them with Phase Lances". AI just does not reserve flux/weapon cooldown for such planned usage.

It's still a huge improvement over pre-0.9 AI and works rather well with Eagle builds like: 2x HAC (or 1x HAC + 1x HNeedler), 1x Mauler, 2x Graviton (persistent offense) + 3x LRPD/PD (persistent PD) + 1x Heavy Blaster (opportunistic flux dump) .
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Thaago

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2019, 01:05:41 PM »

Depends on how you want to fly it, but the key thing is that you aren't using the phase lances all the time - they are finishers and anti-fighter - so its ok to be overfluxed. The Eagle can handle 3x Autocannon + Ion Beam flux neutral, so when battering down the shields there isn't much need for greater efficiency. When firing the lances, in general you are dumping your flux reserve into a kill anyways (and you can safely vent much of the time, because phase lances will knock out guns very well on the second or third shot). I don't value range matching very much in mobile ships like Falcons and Eagles, though its a big concern on Dominators and Onslaughts.
Is this for playership only, does it include AI?  Whenever I give phase lance Eagles to AI, they just brawl and fire lances at every opportunity.  The AI overloads sooner or later because of flux spikes from phase lances.  Even worse if I combo them with needlers (which I did during 0.8 when needlers were more flux efficient).

AI manages it's flux only in sense of "too much flux, let's fire less" not "I want to drive enemy flux up with efficient kinetics, then finish them with Phase Lances". AI just does not reserve flux/weapon cooldown for such planned usage.

It's still a huge improvement over pre-0.9 AI and works rather well with Eagle builds like: 2x HAC (or 1x HAC + 1x HNeedler), 1x Mauler, 2x Graviton (persistent offense) + 3x LRPD/PD (persistent PD) + 1x Heavy Blaster (opportunistic flux dump) .

The AI does pretty well with the loadout, but not perfect, because as TaLaR points out it doesn't keep a reserve like the player does. However, only 2 phase lances, set to alternating (important!) is a low enough burden that the AI manages it well. The Ion Beam is in its own group, and the AI turns it off when brawling to save flux, which is good group management.
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goduranus

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2019, 08:15:51 PM »

Oh hell, that's why I always overload whenever I use the Falcon, cuz I set the medium energy to linked (facepalm)

Thaago

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2019, 09:26:07 PM »

That and very aggressive venting help a lot, yeah! The AI in particular really likes the alternating mode and will actually fire them in a staggered pattern when at medium flux.

(Recently I've had my AI Falcons be 1x Phase and 1x Ion though, which is more comfortable.)
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ThePollie

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Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2019, 09:45:15 AM »

Reminds me of a similar issue I encountered in Battletech and Starship:Gemini. Late game just boiled down to using only the largest, most powerful mechs/ships, because anything smaller is simply obsolete in every fashion. My attempts at frigate-only runs generally fail after I bump into fleets with twelve Moras and I get swept down by fifty fights of strike craft with no real way to answer it.
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