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Author Topic: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?  (Read 41686 times)

intrinsic_parity

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2018, 02:21:48 PM »

Devastator is not supposed to be good at (long range) armor cracking, its mostly PD and supplemental armor damage against smaller targets. If you go to close range (SO or just aggressive piloting in general) it will be better because it has higher DPS, higher damage per shot and better flux efficiency. Devastator is more than good enough against frigates and destroyers. If I am spending an entire large ballistic slot on armor cracking only, it better be capital grade. Two heavy mortars are essentially the same as a haephestus for getting through armor (in dps and damage per shot) and the mortars are more flux efficient by a large margin. It's not capital grade armor cracking and it has no other utility unlike devastator. It's not a terrible weapon, I just think there's usually a better choice.

DPS is generally not a super important stat for HE weapons. Damage per shot is king and you only need enough HE to get through armor. For KE and energy, dps/flux efficiency matters a lot more because it dictates whether you win the flux battle. If you can win the flux battle, HE is just letting you finish the job a little faster. There is something to be said for taking advantage of short windows of opportunity with HE but that requires burst damage not sustained dps so high damage per shot is still better. I just generally don't want high flux/sec HE damage in my loadouts.  

The ability to hit fast ships at long range is nice, but medium weapons can do that as well, and those small ships can't do anything to you until they come closer anyway.
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Goumindong

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2018, 02:38:19 PM »

Not sure why you’re trying to convince me that the HAG is bad by comparing it to two heavy mortars with more range when heavy mortars are good weapons and the HAG has better accuracy and armor cracking

2 HMortars do 440 DPS at 220 cracking to 900 range. They’re they only explosive guns in the game with better than 1 to 1 efficiency but they lose out slightly on effective efficiency because of their lowish shot damage. Additionally they’re exceptionally inaccurate and do not have a consistent shot profile.

1 HAG does 480 DPS at 240 cracking to 900 range with goodish accuracy and an amazingly consistent shot profile. That is good! That is really good!

You would do better to compare them to H Maulers (266 DPS at 400 cracking to 1000 range for 300f/s) where they also come out on top.


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StarGibbon

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2018, 02:38:58 PM »

Flux really isnt an issue for HAGs on a Conquest. If you're skipping heavy weapons on one side, you can make a Conquest efficient enough to fire HAGs all day long.

It depends on what you're using it for though. I use mine as a "wall of death" in front of my fleet with a large firing cone that destroys anything that enters, with my fleet picking off stragglers from the side. Being able to get your guns on *any* target rapidly allows me to fend off a half dozen ships at once and drive them back even if I fail to outright destroy them.  This works efficiently for me, since more and more often I skip the increasingly devalued Combat tree skills that make other weapons more feasible.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2018, 02:56:45 PM »

My point was that mortars are not particularly good vs capital grade armor and neither is Haephestus by the stats, that's all I was saying. I'm also no trying to convince you that it's bad, just not worthwhile. There are better choices for all of the roles you much want. If I want to spend tons of flux on a conquest, I will use mjolnir or gauss that are much better vs shields and provide decent armor penetration. If I want to get through armor vs capitals or low tech ships I will use hellebore. If I want to fight high tech/midtech, I definitely want lots of KE and won't be spending a large ballistic slot on excessive HE dps. The only thing it is actually better than other choices at is killing fast frigates/destroyers but I am not putting a conquest in my fleet to fight frigates. Other weapons are good enough at killing frigates while also being better at fighting larger ships/winning the flux battle. It's like a bigger assault chaingun (although not that bad). The things it is good at are things that don't matter much for a capital ship, and the things it is mediocre/bad are what I care about. This is also a difference in idea about what is important in combat, I'm just explaining why I don't like the weapon. I don't think its unusable or even bad, I just never encounter situations where I would really want it.
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StarGibbon

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2018, 03:07:46 PM »

I'm also not trying to convince you that it's bad, just not worthwhile.

Well, I'm glad that's settled ;)  Most people would consider those terms synonymous though.

Like I said, it matters what role you're giving the ship and what skills you have, and a few points of DPS dont always tell the whole story. Apparently having certain skills would make me suck less at using slow, hard hitting weapons on turrets instead of fixed mounts, but I don't, and so I like HAGS there.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 03:12:39 PM by StarGibbon »
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Goumindong

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2018, 03:11:29 PM »

But... they are... and it is.

Armor DPS is Hellbore/High Intensity Laser then Plasma Cannon then Haephestus Assault Gun

Hull DPs is Plasma Cannon then mjolnir then Heavy Blaster then Haephestus Assault Gun

Armor DPF is Hellbore then HIL then Haephestus Assault Gun.

Hull DPF is Plasma Cannon then HIL then Haephestus Assault Gun.

It capital level armor damage!  It’s capital level hull damage! It’s efficient capital level armor and hull damage! The only thing that is consistently better at it for capital level hull and armor dps and DPF only does soft flux and so can easily be shield tanked! The only things better at it at hull and armor dps are large energy weapons with significantly worse DPF and much lower range!

It’s like a longer range assault Chaingun... and assault chainguns are good! They’re really good! And if they hit three times as hard for armor cracking and had twice the range they would be amazing!

You know what happens if you shoot a capital ship with loads of KE damage? It armor tanks it.

EDIT:

TTK 2200 armor and then Hull DPS afterwards. Editing with Flux to Kill for armor and Hull Damage per Flux
Code
		TTK 	Hull DPS  Armor FTK  Hull DPF
HAG        13 329       6250      .6854
HIL 7.1     409       3350      .818
Plasma Cannon 9.24 620       6930      .826
Hellbore 6 232       1500      .928
Heavy Blaster 14      409       10080     .568
Mjolnir         15.75 418       10505     .663

That is clearly capital level armor and hull DPS!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 03:45:41 PM by Goumindong »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2018, 03:34:27 PM »

Assault chainguns are awful? 400 flux per second with 200 dps vs shields and 60 damage per shot vs armor and only 450 range. In the running for the worst medium ballistic.

Every gun does decent damage to hull you only need HE to help get past the initial high armor barrier and that initial barrier is best cracked with high damage per shot weapons. As you cut through armor, other weapons become more effective. Anything can provide hull dps it's not important to be effective vs hull, otherwise thumper would be great weapon. Damage per shot it the most important stat for HE damage. All HE is required for is destroying armor, and then other guns will do just fine to get through hull.

Certainly vs some ships, armor is a big challenge, but then I will specialize for armor cracking.

Bad means you are making a mistake by using, not worthwhile means there are better choices but it will get the job done.

There is also clearly a difference in general loadout philosophy here. I clearly don't value HE as much as you do.
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SCC

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2018, 03:42:01 PM »

For Conquest, I use asymmetric loadout. Twin gauss guns on one side, twin mjolnirs and an ion beam on the other, flaks in all medium ballistics. Locusts in big missile mounts, nothing in mediums. Some PD for the front and the back. Raise flux with one side, finish with the other. You might want to try and have both sides of Conquest fire, but trust me: don't. Not even it has enough flux dissipation to do that.

Goumindong

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2018, 03:59:27 PM »

Assault chainguns are awful? 400 flux per second with 200 dps vs shields and 60 damage per shot vs armor and only 450 range. In the running for the worst medium ballistic.

Every gun does decent damage to hull you only need HE to help get past the initial high armor barrier and that initial barrier is best cracked with high damage per shot weapons. As you cut through armor, other weapons become more effective. Anything can provide hull dps it's not important to be effective vs hull, otherwise thumper would be great weapon. Damage per shot it the most important stat for HE damage. All HE is required for is destroying armor, and then other guns will do just fine to get through hull.

Certainly vs some ships, armor is a big challenge, but then I will specialize for armor cracking.

Bad means you are making a mistake by using, not worthwhile means there are better choices but it will get the job done.

There is also clearly a difference in general loadout philosophy here. I clearly don't value HE as much as you do.

Assault chainguns are amazing and no not every gun does decent damage to hull or armor. And yes this is important. And Hull DPS matters, the reason that frag weapons aren't good is because they don't actually do a lot of damage against hull(it used to be the case, before minimum armor that Vulcan Cannons were OP ship killers because they would just absolutely shred hull) even if they are marginally DPF efficient against hull.

As an example the Thumper against an Onslaught with no more armor left does about 92 DPS for 150 flux(.61 D/F). An Assault Chaingun does 208 DPS for 400 flux(.52 D/F). This is half the DPS for the slot and not a significant advantage on the flux, considering the Thumper cannot really contribute to damaging armor it also cannot force shields to be up.

More important than just "hull and armor DPS" (which are super important) is the consistency of the damage application. The last thing you want to have happen is the enemy to be able to block the damaging HE shots on shield and then armor tank all your kinetic damage. Because of this, burst HE damage has a significant disadvantage when in fighting the AI, its likely going to pop its shields to deal with the damage, then bring them back down in order to have the flux advantage. Being able to put down consistent HE damage means that the AI cannot ever drop its shields without getting smashed. This means that it will often acquire hard flux FASTER than if you were just dealing kinetic or bursty HE.

That is one of the reason why Tacyhon Lances and HIL are valuable despite not dealing hard flux because any hard flux that is applied cannot be dissipated as shields have to consistently be up to not have your armor and hull wrecked
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2018, 04:13:12 PM »

You don't need to spend 800 flux per second to keep enemy shields up, one medium HE weapons is enough to convince the AI to keep their shields up or will be after only a small amount of damage unless the enemy is an onslaught or something with excessive amounts of armor, but if I am concerned about fighting a lot of low-tech, I will just specialize my loadout for that with the better anti-armor weapons. Maybe the AI improvements have changed the AI's shield usage this patch since I haven't played enough/payed close enough attention to test this, but in the past, a small amount of HE was enough to keep AI shields up. If you are firing 800+fps of HE damage into shields you will lose the flux battle. A small amount of HE is sufficient. The enemy may not immediately put up shields if they have lots of armor (cruiser/capital) but after a small amount of damage to armor, they will start using shields and then you can just win the flux battle.

Also, are you the person who tweaks the armor values in the setting to make it much better and made a post about it a while back?
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Goumindong

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2018, 04:16:57 PM »

No, i do not tweak armor values in settings. I do however, do field testing. And well, you don't generally win with a handful of HE. You have to actually do damage to armor. Otherwise the enemy will just back away and re-engage.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2018, 04:22:02 PM »

Apologies, the thread was made by someone else.

I rarely use more than medium HE and torpedos/fighters and I have no trouble winning battles against any fleet/ship composition. I've also played for hundreds of hours, so obviously there is more than one viable play style.
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Otharious

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2018, 07:29:31 PM »

Thanks all for your lovely feedback :)

I understand why you all have different load-outs for each side of the Conquest.

Am bit OCD and dont like lopsidedness

But the main reason why I like the sides being the same is...my armor layout and why i run with heavy armor (I plan to get a 14th battlegroup conquest when i can find one)
I love to fly and spread damage across my armor. Makes me last even longer as i use every inch of my armor if i can to prevent hull damage.   (i tend to fly small niche fleets so being overwhelmed is common but not unwinnable so i love to be a daredevil and pull crazy moves)

Thus I like all my fire arcs to be able to deal with the biggest threats no matter what side I am facing them.    I dont try and drive into mosh bits and have both sides firing. but the option to flip my sides to take more damage is great (even more so when i have max combat skills (minus a few of the useless ones)

My shields only get raised to deal with missiles and hard hitting HE and certain energy weapons (or stuck at my engines to make Anti-engine missiles *** off)

I most likely will drop my shield upgrades ad go with armored turrets. Might switch the front med energy to burst PD or something else.  Just gotta test all this feedback I got :)
The reason why am not too worried about not not going lopsided load outs is because I work with my fleet I support them (instead of them supporting me cause escort order is dumb as balls) whats all this mean?
Well.. Frigates/fighters get eaten by my fighters/destroyers and its great to watch.


Let me change this topic to the 2nd part of my question.
What is in your fleet when you fly a conquest?
Right now I have 2 Herons,Gpyron ,14th battle group falcon, an eagle(i flew this before conquest) 3 hammerheads  and 4 wolves plus a shrike

Its not an ideal setup I noticed my cruiser and destroyer choices are not line ships by any means and since I fight pirates a lot been having some issues with my wolves and hammerheads being melted. (drowned by fighters and KO'ed by Falcon P torps) I might need to look into mix the other destroyers in my fleet that have better PD coverage then a hammerhead lol

I have yet to actually USE my conquest outside of simulator.  But am looking for a great fleet setup that is not to big  (tug ships for burn and fuel cargo ships not withstanding)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 07:33:29 PM by Snoowarc »
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StarGibbon

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2018, 07:36:49 PM »


Let me change this topic to the 2nd part of my question.
What is in your fleet when you fly a conquest?


Carriers. More carriers. Possibly some escorts. My Conquests job is just to keep other ships off my carriers while they kill stuff.  Hence my long range Tac laser PD and preference for HAGs on the side that can spray any target rapidly.  Works very well against bases. long range Beam PD clears path for fighters, guns long enough range to stay at edge of Base's firing arc to keep pressure on shields, but can still retreat as necessary to deflux.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 07:38:52 PM by StarGibbon »
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TheWetFish

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Re: Conquest ship build/fleet Tips?
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2018, 01:46:55 AM »

Let me change this topic to the 2nd part of my question.
What is in your fleet when you fly a conquest?

Quite fond of a supporting carrier set to Escort with Mining Pods or Xyphos.  A nice defensive boost without blocking fire.  I could see a good argument for Longbows.  Do ensure it is a carrier not a combat carrier so it has the desired Escort order behaviour for this situation; this means Condor, Gemini or Astral.

I've also had good experiences setting a defensive waypoint a little ways behind the Conquest with something fielding Ion Beams.  Combines wonderfully with the kinetics for additional pressure at pushing things away. 
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