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Author Topic: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?  (Read 7638 times)

Torch

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How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« on: December 11, 2018, 07:10:09 AM »

I'm a glutton for punishment and like to play on Iron Mode despite my complete inability to deal with fleet wipes. Unfortunately, starting a new game is the easiest way of returning from a fleet wipe (which often happens within the first hour of play). I had no trouble reaching endgame in 0.8.1a, but now I can't even make it past assembling anything but a fleet of scrap metal frigates. I understand the game's mechanics quite well but I get impatient and go for big payouts before I'm prepared for them.

I'm considering adjusting the salvage multiplier so I'm not stuck scraping by so much, but before I make the game easier for myself i would like to actually figure out how to overcome these setbacks or avoid them altogether, otherwise i don't think much will change.

A 'few' things I probably do wrong are:
- 0 carriers in fleet
- Intercepted often by more powerful fleets
- Accepting commissions immediately
- Expanding fleet size too quickly
- Relying almost exclusively on space trash to bolster my forces
- Any loss from an 'unexpected' source (like a unique yet counterable weapon/ship from a mod faction for example) feels unfair to me until after I've already ragequit and restarted (screw you, Multi-CAS Beam)
- Focusing on getting all non-colony Industry skills ASAP to reduce my expenses
- Buying storage at Jangala when the Abandoned Terraforming Platform is literally in the same system???
- Saving every single weapon I salvage in storage so I can build a stock to equip my fleet better mid-game (which I never reach)
- Probably not selling my salvage in the best places (Open Market, not looking for ideal stations to sell at)
- Usually can't find more than 1 officer before wiping
- Not really bothering with exploration missions despite enjoying them

Any advice on how to deal with these things that I acknowledge but keep doing anyway would be appreciated, I want to actually experience what 0.9 has to offer.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 07:12:43 AM by Torch »
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Darloth

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2018, 07:57:12 AM »

The problem is, you've already accounted for all of my advice and claim you're going to do the thing I might suggest you change...

So, um, I'm a bit stuck!

Have you tried playing on Easy?  It's quite a lot easier!

You could also just give yourself a big chunk of money to start with, use it to start a colony, and then play on through any wipes because the colony can build you up a new fleet.
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Torch

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2018, 08:12:43 AM »

The thing is that I really enjoy slow buildups, too - accelerated starts and using cheats to give myself an easy start are a big no-no for me. I know I'm kinda shooting myself in the foot and asking for someone to tell me how to not do that. Probably going to change the Easy settings down to just a 20% salvage bonus without the other bonuses, and building up some funds via exploration missions with a small fleet will probably be sufficient to get me off the ground.
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SafariJohn

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2018, 08:21:54 AM »

Avoid getting caught, and optimize your fleet so you don't get wiped when you do:

- Use fast civ ships and give them Unstable Injectors so they are even faster.
- Put Militarized Systems on the civ ships so they don't tank your sensor profile.
- Always have some fast frigates/destroyers that are certain to escape so you have something to pilot if you lose your preferred ships.
- Get Hi-Res Sensors on stuff so you can see farther.
- Get the Technology skills that reduce sensor profile and increase sensor range.

Don't worry about fuel and supplies so much. You do need to closely watch your fuel, but you can run out of supplies pretty far from port and still make it back safely.
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Darloth

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2018, 08:44:43 AM »

Ok.  I'll have a go then :)

Learn which weapons are common and which aren't.  For example, there's literally no point in keeping more vulcans, LMGs or arbelasts than you think you'll need to fit your next ship (and even that's probably overkill) because when you can build ships, you can ALSO build those weapons and they'll come pre-equipped with that stuff, or maybe even with better if you've unlocked it first.

In short - sell any weapon that isn't rare, keep (or even buy and store) the ones that actually you don't see often.  Only experience really tells you what those are.


Treat sensor range and especially -detection range- penalties as a huge deal.  Go find somewhere selling Insulated Engine Assembly hullmod as a matter of urgency, it's pretty cheap to buy and often available for sale, and once you have it you can basically as much as halve your fleet's sensor profile in exchange for them having lower OP... but many of the things you'll really want to be halving are already stuff that don't get into combat much.  It's fine if you can't spare the OP for a wolf or a Lasher to have IEA, but that buffalo or tarsus?  That needs it, for certain, and possibly Militarized Subsystems as well early game where you do not want the extra detection penalty.

If a piece of space-trash would decrease your burn speed below 9, don't take it, scrap it instead.  If there's a storage you have nearby you might like to dump it in, maybe it's worth the risk, but maintain a base burn of 9 and you can usually e-burn away from anything else big enough to be a big deal.
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Torch

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2018, 09:01:32 AM »

Thank you both for the advice, this is exactly what I needed! I never thought that sensor profile/range would be so important, definitely going to start investing into the Technology tree and scrapping/selling what I'm not using. I usually end up with a significant amount of clunkers sitting in Jangala and doing me no good. Goodbye 'more is better', hello 'ensuring I don't put myself in game-ending situations every 20 minutes'
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Cik

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2018, 09:35:59 AM »

if you grow too fast, it will kill you. if you ton up to cruisers (burn 8) and you are a low character level, and you meet one or more cruisers with high officer levels, you are instantly dead.

stay with larger numbers of faster ships, and always run transponder off if able. this will give you strategic initiative and you can always choose not to engage things you think will kill you.

~perfect SA comes with time and practice. before long you will be extremely good at estimating the threat level of an enemy fleet, and as long as you have strategic initiative you will win every fight.

know the enemy, know thyself, need not fear result of a hundred battles etc.
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StarGibbon

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2018, 09:58:40 AM »

I'm a glutton for punishment and like to play on Iron Mode despite my complete inability to deal with fleet wipes.

I actually recommend a self imposed "iron man" mode where you simply limit save scumming, but have the flexibility to overcome an unintentional mistake or technical issue, if you think you have the discipline.  For instance if the AI beats me fair and square I accept the loss, but if I do something absent minded like forget to assign my officers to the correct ships before a battle, I don't force a play-through to be crippled over that.  I'm not sure if the game is really well designed for iron man play at present, and I'll never trust a game system with limited save files. Too many corrupted game files for one reason or another over the years. To each their own.



A 'few' things I probably do wrong are:
1 0 carriers in fleet
2 Intercepted often by more powerful fleets
3 Accepting commissions immediately
4 Expanding fleet size too quickly
5 Relying almost exclusively on space trash to bolster my forces
6 Any loss from an 'unexpected' source (like a unique yet counterable weapon/ship from a mod faction for example) feels unfair to me until after I've already ragequit and restarted (screw you, Multi-CAS Beam)
7 Focusing on getting all non-colony Industry skills ASAP to reduce my expenses
8 Buying storage at Jangala when the Abandoned Terraforming Platform is literally in the same system???
9 Saving every single weapon I salvage in storage so I can build a stock to equip my fleet better mid-game (which I never reach)
10 Probably not selling my salvage in the best places (Open Market, not looking for ideal stations to sell at)
11 Usually can't find more than 1 officer before wiping
12 Not really bothering with exploration missions despite enjoying them


1) Carriers are important. Fighters are a very efficient way of winning battles, invaluable against starbases, as long as you go all in on the various fighter/carrier related bonuses. Make sure carrier officers have all their green skills, and max out Fighter Doctrine for the fleet, otherwise you'd be better off with a more powerful conventional warship.

2) Until such point as you have enough quality large ships to make a competent warfleet, keep your fleet size under the threshold where you can still disengage from battle. Watch the max burn speed of your ships, and keep them all at or above a target number--dont put a single slowpoke in your fleet to slow everyone else down.  Militarized subsystems can be placed on civilian hulls for a 1 point burn speed bump, as well as sensor bonus. Figure out what sort of activity a given fleet will be doing most of the time, and dont carry ships that dont contribute to this purpose. Keep your daily supply use under 2 per day in the early game, until such time as money is no longer a significant factor, and you can afford to carry around massive war and supply ships.

3) Accepting commissions is a tradeoff. You'll get easy access to powerful, rare warships, weapons, and tech, but you'll be at war with other factions, making travel more difficult in some instances. It's really only suitable for a hardcore combat focused game. If you want easier open ended exploration, better to stay on everyone's good side.

4) See #2

5) Salvaged ships are perfectly viable for low to medium intensity combat, exploration, and low to mid range bounties IF you invest in the associated skills to make them viable. Otherwise avoid. Certain ship types can function reliably with a few D-Mods, other ships really need to be pristine in order to work.

6) I dont recommend any sort of iron man game for players unfamiliar with the various pitfalls of the game. It's more of a challnge mode for veteran players.

7) Certain skills like the passive supply and fuel reductions are mandatory in my opinion. Taken sooner, rather than later, they amount to a massive savings over the course of the game, and just make travel around the galaxy less stressful. Personally, I think Field repairs is a must have for any combat fleet. The industry skills related to D ships should only be taken if you are, in fact, going to use D ships.

8. Sounds like youve figured this out.

9) Personally, I actually do save every weapon--even mundane weapons. You never know when you might have an odd number of weapons or OP left on a ship, and can't quite fit a preferred weapon, and must make do with another kind. Even ubiquitous Vulcan cannons can be used up quickly on the larger low tech ships, and it's frustrating to have to put a light machine gun on instead because the port you're at doesn't sell them. Storage is a slightly more complicated issue--you ideally want to store them some place with a dockyard which you'll use for all ship refitting, but you pay storage fees for that until you get your own colony. I'm unaware if the abandoned station has the facilities needed to fully refit ships.  This is perhaps no longer necessary once you have a colony able to produce most weapons you need, but personally I find it tedious to have to sort through the weapons to figure out what I want to sell--they don't sell for much anyway, and it's easier to just dump them all in storage.  For a newer player, it's also useful to have a wide variety of weapons available for experimentation.

10) Yes, the tariffs in the game are designed to push the player into engaging in the slightly more complex system of black markets, patrol scans and relations, and stability. You'll have to make choices about whether you want to risk dumping all your goods in a single black market and risk a relations drop or destabilization. Personally, I recommend storing the tradeable goods you find, and use them to fulfill procurement missions for better profit and relations bump, rather than outright selling them.

11) Officers are common at ports, and can often be found for free during exploration missions. They are hugely important, as they drastically increase a ships performance. Even d ships can function well if given a competent officer.

12) Exploration = Loot. You want the best loot, you have to explore. It's the only way to get the things you'll need for the colony game, and you never know what else you'll find. You can find free capital ships floating in space sometimes. Salvaged goods also make trade missions much more profitable than buying the goods with your own money.  Be sure to have *some*warships even for exploration though, as the best loot is often behind a modest screen of defenders.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 07:45:19 PM by StarGibbon »
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Torch

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2018, 10:57:39 AM »

Holy flip, you actually addressed every point, you mad man! If I can't make it past early game using all this advice then I may be a little hopeless. Here's hoping to a much longer save once I finally get back to my PC!
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StarGibbon

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2018, 11:20:33 AM »

Holy flip, you actually addressed every point, you mad man! If I can't make it past early game using all this advice then I may be a little hopeless. Here's hoping to a much longer save once I finally get back to my PC!

Yeah, but in fairness, it was *me* addressing every point, vs any of the far more knowledgeable players. So your mileage may vary. Still, I hope it's helpful.
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mendonca

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2018, 11:45:15 AM »

Your playstyle seems very similar to mine.

Assuming (like me) you will not manage to get completely ‘sensible’ in the decisions you make - The thing that probably made the biggest difference for me was selling my soul to the carrier god.

Take a deep breath and buy a Heron. Notwithstanding the fact your chances of winning increase markedly; Even if you end up dumping the ~100k from the Heron plus LPCs (or maybe an equivalent elsewhere in the fleet) by using it as part of a sacrificial lamb type move - the interference from the fighters can buy so much time to mitigate the total fleet wipe scenario in an escape.

Without the fighters it all feels a bit claustrophobic out there; especially now with bigger enemy fleets generally and increased risk of being swarmed.
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Thaago

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2018, 12:46:30 PM »

I agree with previous advise - for iron man playthrough's the most essential fleet stats are sensor ratings and burn speed. That should let you avoid being 'ganked' by much larger fleets. (Another tip: do sensor pulses only when hidden in a debris field or asteroid belt - you can see much farther than you can be seen.) And if you do, try to have your non-combat ships be of the faster variety so they can escape.

Once you've gotten past getting ganked by huge fleets, absolutely nothing helps more than taking appropriate personal combat skills and having a pristine, well equipped offensive flagship of destroyer size or larger. Hammerhead, Sunder, Medusa, and Falcon are all good choices for burn 9 fleets. First priority is targeting 2 + defensive systems 2. Next impact mitigation 3, ordinance expert 3, and targeting 3. Combat endurance 1 would be useful if you were flying a frigate, but you aren't, so don't take it. I like to then branch into tech for navigation/venting/gunnery/OP boosting, followed finally by leadership.
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StarGibbon

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2018, 01:23:57 PM »

Should also probably note that the game start where you get a free apogee makes the early game drastically easier than the other ones, if you'd like to reduce early game difficulty without lowering the entire game difficulty.
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TheWetFish

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2018, 04:25:17 PM »

Some great advice in this thread. There is a wiki page on Avoiding Combat now. Officers can be super important and possibly for you in particular. 

You don't lose everything in a fleet wipe. 

You retain your skills, which can have a profound impact. You retain any non-fleet assets like storage and colonies. Losing a fleet can feel horrible but you are your most import asset and you persist. 

Taken out by a surprise large pirate fleet? Awesome.  You now have a purpose, an impetus to go hunt that fleet down.  Yeah you'll get fleet wiped sometimes, keep playing :)
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Flying Birdy

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Re: How to overcome an endless cycle of start-scumming?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2018, 05:35:54 PM »

I've done mostly pirate playthroughs where I start hostile with everyone. So I've had my share of wipes. Here's some tips.

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1 0 carriers in fleet

Carriers are better. Use them. Drovers are particularly amazing as even a drover with degraded engines can fly at 10 burn with augmented engines.

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2 Intercepted often by more powerful fleets

Transponder should be off at all times, unless you are near a planet trying to sell. This removes like 90 percent of the threats you face, as even hostile factions won't be hostile if they don't know who you are.

Make sure your ships are 10 burn at all times. You can even go for 11 burn with navigation skill + 10 burn ships. If you are chased, e-burn into terrain and that will slow your pursuers more due to navigation skill.

Sensor skill is also vastly underrated. sensor 2 greatly lowers the number of threats and can essentially make your fleet invisible with go dark. Sensor 2 + go dark + any sort of terrain = 60 detection range = invisible fleet.

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3 Accepting commissions immediately

Don't. The whole point of the industry tree is that it allows you to get 90% of your fleet without buying.

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4 Expanding fleet size too quickly

Scuttle everything but carriers for ships that you recover. Try and keep your combat fleet to exactly 180 deployment points total.

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5 Relying almost exclusively on space trash to bolster my forces

carrier with 5 d-mods is still a carrier. Using them is fine.

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6 Any loss from an 'unexpected' source (like a unique yet counterable weapon/ship from a mod faction for example) feels unfair to me until after I've already ragequit and restarted (screw you, Multi-CAS Beam)

I don't use mods so I can't comment on this.

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7 Focusing on getting all non-colony Industry skills ASAP to reduce my expenses

This is correct. If you have reinforced bulk heads + recovery ops 2 you can guarrantee (100%) all your losses are recovered after battle.

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8 Buying storage at Jangala when the Abandoned Terraforming Platform is literally in the same system???

Yea don't do that. but it doesn't make a huge difference in the long run so not a big deal.

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9 Saving every single weapon I salvage in storage so I can build a stock to equip my fleet better mid-game (which I never reach)

This isn't a bad idea. You'll find yourself short of weapons you really want if you don't do this.

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10 Probably not selling my salvage in the best places (Open Market, not looking for ideal stations to sell at)

Most of your stuff should be sold at Kapetyn starworks or Qaras. Perpetual shortages in those two markets. Drugs sell for 2.5x at Qaras almost all the time. If you kill a drug smuggling fleet, you made bank if you sell those drugs at Qaras.

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11 Usually can't find more than 1 officer before wiping
Officers are expensive. Nice to have but not necessary.

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12 Not really bothering with exploration missions despite enjoying them
Exploration is nice and steady income, but also not necessary. Just doing combat is not bad, if you know combat really well.
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