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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Re-working command points and fleet command  (Read 7198 times)

Schwartz

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Re: Re-working command points and fleet command
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2018, 07:18:13 AM »

Granted that some orders work their way down. I still think yelling at the navigator who's sitting a few feet away from you does not warrant much of a delay. But yeah, it could happen.

Still, you're saying the reason for a delay (for this whole suggestion, really) is to counteract a problem that SS is not even prone to. That's like a solution in search of a problem.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Re-working command points and fleet command
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2018, 08:35:52 AM »

Yea... since there's no benefit to zig zagging ships across the maps even if your CP points are unlimited, maybe you're right.

So we could try just eliminating CP, to begin with.
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Darloth

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Re: Re-working command points and fleet command
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2018, 11:34:49 AM »

It would be pretty easy... trivial, even, to make a mod that sets the default command point max to 1, but makes it recharge very quickly.

Would that be a useful mod for exploring this topic?

(Also I know it's not exactly relevant, but
Automation is BS, even at SS levels of technology it's still probably cheaper and more reliable just to have dude load a shell into a gun rather than some complicated automatic feeder mechanism that introduces a bunch of new failure points.
we have autoloaders for pretty big shells with today's level of technology, and we've had them for a fairly long while now.  Starsector has autofeed guns for certain, given some of the rotating barrel weapons - the assault chaingun for example, we can make a ballpark guess at scale from the hound drawing and say that gun is pretty BIG on a human scale, and it must go through hundreds, maybe thousands of shells per minute)
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Re-working command points and fleet command
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2018, 08:43:32 AM »

It would be pretty easy... trivial, even, to make a mod that sets the default command point max to 1, but makes it recharge very quickly.

Would that be a useful mod for exploring this topic?

(Also I know it's not exactly relevant, but
Automation is BS, even at SS levels of technology it's still probably cheaper and more reliable just to have dude load a shell into a gun rather than some complicated automatic feeder mechanism that introduces a bunch of new failure points.
we have autoloaders for pretty big shells with today's level of technology, and we've had them for a fairly long while now.  Starsector has autofeed guns for certain, given some of the rotating barrel weapons - the assault chaingun for example, we can make a ballpark guess at scale from the hound drawing and say that gun is pretty BIG on a human scale, and it must go through hundreds, maybe thousands of shells per minute)

Yea, making a mod to kill CP would probably be helpful, and not that tricky, as you say.

As for the automation, yes modern turrets are largely automatic but they tend to be smaller. SS ships seem to have enormous turrets plus basically unlimited ammo. It seems more like battleships in the 50s or something, with a bunch of little guys running around here and there with bundles of propellant.

In any case, big ships in starsector have enourmous crew, they must be doing something -- fixing the autoloader when it jams? calculating trajectories? doing math? So the latency/order queue thing does kinda make sense.
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Cik

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Re: Re-working command points and fleet command
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2018, 09:32:15 AM »

While I'm against super ridiculous micro in general and am a fan of complicated c2 systems in my sims, I don't really see a realistic case where this changes anything. Orders don't really do that much and aren't needed to win anyway, wht bother hitting them with what is effectively a nerf stick?
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TrashMan

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Re: Re-working command points and fleet command
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2018, 10:44:52 AM »

Granted that some orders work their way down. I still think yelling at the navigator who's sitting a few feet away from you does not warrant much of a delay. But yeah, it could happen.

Commanding your own flagship and commanding the ships of others are two different thing.
You wouldn't be moving your ships trough the command inzerface anyway, you'd use keyboard


Quote
Still, you're saying the reason for a delay (for this whole suggestion, really) is to counteract a problem that SS is not even prone to. That's like a solution in search of a problem.

No, you're not understanding it. The reason why it works like it does now is to prevent players from micro-managing everything (or at least, that is how I am understanding it).
What I propose is there to get rid of the clunky CP system, but still retain some semblance of sense and immersion, while de-incentivizing excessive micro.
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TrashMan

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Re: Re-working command points and fleet command
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2018, 10:49:20 AM »

I'll play devil's advocate. What' the point? 8 seconds is almost unnoticeable as far as actual combat events are concerned. Whether a ship gets its orders immediately or a few seconds later will have little impact and just needlessly complicates a simple system.

A few seconds can make a big difference.
1 second the ship is there, the next it gets a face full of reaper torpedoes. It's like we're not playing the same game.


Quote
Assume a cruiser is already on-course to overextend into an enemy formation. It will take him far longer to reverse thrust and get his ass out of there than this proposed command delay. A commander giving 5 orders at once seems odd, but let's assume he gets the same tactical map on his bridge that the player gets. Assume he's reasonably fast and well-practiced in using it. Orders don't need to be verbal, so imposing a delay seems arbitrary.

Approximation friend. Chain of command. Complications and generally the human factor. If you ever served on a warships or an a fleet, you're realize that orders are no executed instantly and that well-trained and homogenous force is more effective precisely because they are faster and more precise.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Re-working command points and fleet command
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2018, 11:40:58 AM »

I'll play devil's advocate. What' the point? 8 seconds is almost unnoticeable as far as actual combat events are concerned. Whether a ship gets its orders immediately or a few seconds later will have little impact and just needlessly complicates a simple system.

A few seconds can make a big difference.
1 second the ship is there, the next it gets a face full of reaper torpedoes. It's like we're not playing the same game.


Orders really don't do enough to change this situation though. If a ship is in a situation where it is about to get obliterated, no order that you give it will save it, regardless of if there is a delay. You can't order a ship to not die to reapers. That might be partially because ships are bad at following orders, but it's mostly because none of the actions that you can order are really very useful in increasing survivability. Even without a delay, trying to save ships by ordering them to run away or ordering another ship to come help usually doesn't work. That's my experience anyway.
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Torch

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Re: Re-working command points and fleet command
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2018, 12:57:16 PM »

If a ship is over-extended for some reason or is off chasing a single frigate across the map, a significant delay would most definitely make an impact. The timescale of combat compared to 'real' time in-game is likely disconnected from the gameplay, so an order that takes 2 seconds of IRL time may take a lot longer for the crew and command to 'actually' execute. Gameplay first, THEN the lore can be used/changed to justify why things work the way they do.

Ships should definitely be responsive to orders. A queue would kill an already under-used feature. Latency on a per-ship basis may work, but it would still needlessly complicate an already quite complex game.

I think the most important thing is to refine how orders are actually carried out, with ships not acting suicidally whenever an attack order is given, and 'Avoid' command not creating a ridiculously large area that your entire fleet will avoid. Perhaps make Avoid based on the enemy ship's weapon ranges?

Edit:  #1 thing I want related to commands is for escorts to take cover behind their escort target to vent flux if they're being overwhelmed. Escorts are useless because they so willingly facetank everything. If I have a decent fleet vs. anything that may pose a risk to a good frigate, if an escorted ship presses the attack then those escorts will almost always die. Good escort AI would make frigates really useful.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 01:05:49 PM by Torch »
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TrashMan

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Re: Re-working command points and fleet command
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2018, 01:04:13 PM »

I'll play devil's advocate. What' the point? 8 seconds is almost unnoticeable as far as actual combat events are concerned. Whether a ship gets its orders immediately or a few seconds later will have little impact and just needlessly complicates a simple system.

A few seconds can make a big difference.
1 second the ship is there, the next it gets a face full of reaper torpedoes. It's like we're not playing the same game.


Orders really don't do enough to change this situation though. If a ship is in a situation where it is about to get obliterated, no order that you give it will save it, regardless of if there is a delay. You can't order a ship to not die to reapers. That might be partially because ships are bad at following orders, but it's mostly because none of the actions that you can order are really very useful in increasing survivability. Even without a delay, trying to save ships by ordering them to run away or ordering another ship to come help usually doesn't work. That's my experience anyway.

Then you are not very good at commanding.
The same battle can have vastly different outcomes depending on my starting orders for ships. It also depends on which ships you pick (some ships are better at certain orders).
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Re-working command points and fleet command
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2018, 07:51:57 PM »

I never said orders are not useful, I said they are not useful for small time scale intervention like saving a ship that is in trouble. I admit one sentence in my reply was poorly worded to sound like they do not help at all, that is not what I was trying to say. They are very useful for escort orders and engage/fighter strike orders which I use all the time. However, a delay would have no effect on the usefulness of those orders, they are given 10-20 seconds before they actually have the desired effect, even without a delay. They can be used to prevent ships from getting in trouble but not saving them once they are in trouble.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 07:58:03 PM by intrinsic_parity »
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TrashMan

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Re: Re-working command points and fleet command
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2018, 07:54:45 AM »

That would depend on how tanky a ship is and in how much trouble they are.
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