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Author Topic: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities  (Read 4607 times)

XazoTak

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Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« on: December 09, 2018, 10:44:52 PM »

Everything in the game is fair and counterable, except phase ship abilities.
Absolutely no response exists to them, targets simply have to accept the consequences.

Amplified Entropy is a significant, long-lasting debuff. No way to stop it.
Quantum Disruptor is a severe, short-lasting debuff. Once again, no way to stop it, and used right it can do immense damage effortlessly.
Mine Strike is like being able to instantly land a torpedo or five on any target that is not shielding its trajectory, i.e. anything protecting itself while retreating. Neither players nor AIs can possibly hope to respond in time, and it's by far the most overpowered ability in the game. My complaints about Mine Strike extend to Star Fortresses.

Amplified Entropy just isn't a fun ability to play with or against, even if it gets a rework. Something else would be better.
Quantum Disruptor would be pretty neat as a slow electric pulse. Still unavoidable for large ships, but the issue with it is really that it can instakill small ships. When modding another game, I found that the ideal way to render a slow electric pulse is not to have visible things move but instead have a moving wave in which stationary (though still animated) sparks appear.
Mine Strike should have an arming time that gives ships and fighters a few seconds to respond.
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TaLaR

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2018, 10:59:58 PM »

Entropy Amplifier is fun to use for me. And it's not that different from HEF or AAF in 1v1 setting.

QD is cheat-like in it's effectiveness as Reaper/HB delivery method.

Mine Strike is way too dangerous to character/officer-skilled frigates, especially phase ones. Combination of small collision radius + no shield (cloak cooldown) + high speed kills them.
Worst case, they have fraction of a second to react when mine appears on course (I am actually not sure, whether Afflictor even has enough acceleration to reliably correct course with perfect pilot reaction). I agree with arming delay proposal.
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XazoTak

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2018, 03:14:16 AM »

Oh, also, mines need friendly fire removed until the AI can stop being stupid with them.
I lost two Tempests in one fight to my own Doom.
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goduranus

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2018, 03:26:21 AM »

Is there a way to disable phase ships from the game? I can't help but always gravitate towards Reaper Harbinger setup everygame, and get annoyed if when I am not using them but run into them being used by the AI.

TaLaR

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2018, 03:36:39 AM »

Is there a way to disable phase ships from the game? I can't help but always gravitate towards Reaper Harbinger setup everygame, and get annoyed if when I am not using them but run into them being used by the AI.

AI can't pilot Harbinger or Afflictor (=fails miserably at it compared to plàyer), so what's the problem? Only AI Doom is actually a threat.
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Sutopia

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2018, 03:54:10 AM »

Applying constant arming delay for MS is going to make it completely useless.
It will make mines way too easy to destroy or dodge.
I'd vote for dynamic arming delay for mines check hull(s) near it's LZ. Gets no delay if against big ships and somewhat more significant delay (1 sec?) for smaller ships, viewing it as mine not very sensitive. Against fighters, just let every single fighter (EXCEPT terminator drone!!!) count as 1 frigate should be enough to make no-delay mine popping into fighter swarm, serving it's one of original design purpose.
A would-be-nice formula is counting all hulls in 200 su radius and apply delay 2s/(sum(hull_score)) where frigate count as 1 up to capitals count as 4.
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goduranus

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2018, 03:56:43 AM »

AI can't pilot Harbinger or Afflictor (=fails miserably at it compared to plàyer), so what's the problem? Only AI Doom is actually a threat.

I salvage one, and then can't help myself to start using it.

Deshara

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2018, 04:04:36 AM »

they're only broken against elite ships (: against revenant fleets with canon fodder, it's a simple matter to order 3 frigates onto each enemy phase ship to remove them from the game
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Techhead

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2018, 04:40:03 AM »

Applying constant arming delay for MS is going to make it completely useless.
It will make mines way too easy to destroy or dodge.
I'd vote for dynamic arming delay for mines check hull(s) near it's LZ. Gets no delay if against big ships and somewhat more significant delay (1 sec?) for smaller ships, viewing it as mine not very sensitive. Against fighters, just let every single fighter (EXCEPT terminator drone!!!) count as 1 frigate should be enough to make no-delay mine popping into fighter swarm, serving it's one of original design purpose.
A would-be-nice formula is counting all hulls in 200 su radius and apply delay 2s/(sum(hull_score)) where frigate count as 1 up to capitals count as 4.
I'd just give it a flat timer, somewhere between half-second and a second. Long enough to be fair, short enough to be useful.
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Sutopia

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2018, 04:56:36 AM »

I'd just give it a flat timer, somewhere between half-second and a second. Long enough to be fair, short enough to be useful.
Which is just the mission impossible since if it cannot blow up fighter swarm or tactically place it somewhere "near undodgeable" it's garbage; if it can be easily dodged it's garbage.
There is no gray area in here.
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Megas

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2018, 06:54:20 AM »

If Mine Strike gets weakened, then I want Doom's DP cost to plummet too.  Grabbing a Doom today is a viable alternative to a capital, when Doom is worth almost a capital.  The only problem so far is AI being stupid with mines at times.

Harbinger only has one problematic loadout, triple Reaper.  Take that away and give nothing else back, and it is no longer worth 20 DP for such a specialist ship.  My big problem with Harbinger is it is a playership-only.  If it is only good as a playership, then it better punch as hard as a capital or else I will simply grab a capital to pilot.  Hyperion used to dominate much like Harbinger when skills were stronger and AI was dumber.
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borgrel

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2018, 09:44:51 AM »

i have only fought 2 significant battles against phase ships

soon as a doom is visible, i order a fighter strike on it, the phase ship spends its very limited PPT dodging fighters
problem solved
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XazoTak

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2018, 04:28:19 PM »

they're only broken against elite ships (: against revenant fleets with canon fodder, it's a simple matter to order 3 frigates onto each enemy phase ship to remove them from the game
The player is kind of forced to use elite ships though, because no matter what the player will be outnumbered in the hardest battles. Increasing fleet size in settings.json lets enemies compensate for the larger player fleet by increasing their own fleet size.
If I could, I'd use many Kites and Hounds, but in a tough fight I'll lose a good number and they won't last long while elite ships like Tempest can stick around for a while and are unlikely to die unless a phase ship just uses a "press F to win" ability or a friendly Doom screws up.
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Deshara

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Re: Phase ships shouldn't have instant offence abilities
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2018, 11:58:19 PM »

you don't HAVE to deploy the hulks if there's no cause for them
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