Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5

Author Topic: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.  (Read 27679 times)

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1886
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2018, 11:01:59 AM »

Power Grid Modulation 2 is great because your ship vents significantly faster.  Resistant Flux Conduits alone (along with high vents) is required to not spend ages to vent, but it is not always fast enough.  With the 2 perk too, you can vent quickly.  Vent spam with flux hogs becomes a useful option.

Wait, you voluntarily use resistant flux conduits? RFD/reinforced bulkheads just seem like a waste of OP to me when used in fleets.
What ships are you usually flying/what fleet composition and agains what enemies? Gotta give that a spin.

Resistant Flux Conduits is a top quality mod on any ship that doesn’t fit Safety Overrides. It’s weakened somewhat on AI ships because they don’t like to vent as often but it’s still decent to good.

The primary advantage is that it allows you to more safely vent (and vent in combat).

Fundamentally the game is about putting your flux dissipation into their flux capacity. The fleet that does this the best wins. Many ships have enough weapon slots that firing all of them will use far more flux than they can dissipate. Or they might come under a combination of fire that puts their available capacity to fire at a low value. Venting flux increases your flux dissipation rate massively and so effectively multiplies your overall flux dissipation rate. This is dangerous because you cannot have your shield up when you do it but the faster you vent the less danger you’re in.

Which means that ships which are able to vent effectively can put out near Safety Overrides level flux dissipation without the downsides of low CR and range.

As such, RFC goes on basically all of my battleships and almost all player ships I have that don’t have SO
Logged

Draba

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2018, 01:28:06 PM »

...

I do get the concept of flux, 3/6/9/15 OP just seems like a really bad trade to me.
The bonus isn't that significant unless you are flying something that really likes the EMP resist(~83.33% vent time on a player/officer ship, 80% on others).
Logged

StarGibbon

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2018, 01:58:57 PM »

I find Resistant Flux Conduits most useful on large slow ships that will be using their armor to tank a lot of hits. The big guns on Dominators and Onslaughts aren't much use if their weapons are down or careening helplessly though space. Much less on high tech ship that already have good flux control, speed, and rely on shields--[edit]--in that case though I'm probably running SO on them, so my point is probably moot.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 02:08:32 PM by StarGibbon »
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7173
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2018, 03:17:25 PM »

Power Grid Modulation 2 is great because your ship vents significantly faster.  Resistant Flux Conduits alone (along with high vents) is required to not spend ages to vent, but it is not always fast enough.  With the 2 perk too, you can vent quickly.  Vent spam with flux hogs becomes a useful option.

Wait, you voluntarily use resistant flux conduits? RFD/reinforced bulkheads just seem like a waste of OP to me when used in fleets.
What ships are you usually flying/what fleet composition and agains what enemies? Gotta give that a spin.

Flux resistant conduits are behind only Integrated Targeting Unit in terms of value. They are incredibly powerful for both player and AI. Faster venting = more flux for offense and less opportunity for strike weapons to impact before the vent is complete. This last point is even more important for AI: it runs a calculation on vent danger and is very cautious. By speeding up the vent, we can get the AI to vent in more situations.

50% emp damage reduction is just as valuable - flankers have less time to disable engines (and a single salamander won't do it anymore) and annoyances like thunders and claws are half as effective. Also ion beams disable half as much so you can safely lower shields or vent when being hit without catastrophic disabling.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1886
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2018, 08:10:53 PM »

...

I do get the concept of flux, 3/6/9/15 OP just seems like a really bad trade to me.
The bonus isn't that significant unless you are flying something that really likes the EMP resist(~83.33% vent time on a player/officer ship, 80% on others).

So you vent flux at 2x the normal flux dissipation rate. RFC reduces the time it takes by 25% which is an effective increase in flux dissipation of 33%. (While venting). So you go from 2x to 2.66x flux dissipation while venting.

Since venting is so important for a lot of ships, shield and armor tanking alike, this makes it super valuable.  For a shield tanking ship it reduces the time you’re getting hit on armor. For an armor tanking ship you’re massively increasing your effective flux dissipation.

Salamanders are also the bane of like... all existences. It’s cheaper to put RFC on a ship than equip rear facing point defense to deal with salamanders.

Edit: an example from my favorite ship, the Odyssey. If you have RFC you can burn drive perpendicular to a significant ballistic damaging target, vent, and have your shield back up before they can retarget and put HE on target. If you do not you take armor damage every time you need to do this guaranteed.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 08:13:31 PM by Goumindong »
Logged

Draba

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2018, 01:42:44 AM »

So you vent flux at 2x the normal flux dissipation rate. RFC reduces the time it takes by 25% which is an effective increase in flux dissipation of 33%. (While venting). So you go from 2x to 2.66x flux dissipation while venting.

It increases venting rate by 25%, and is additive with the skill.
That means you go from 250% venting rate to 300%, so instead of 10 secs you vent for ~8.33.
All comes from my own testing so could be wrong.

Flux resistant conduits are behind only Integrated Targeting Unit in terms of value. They are incredibly powerful for both player and AI. Faster venting = more flux for offense and less opportunity for strike weapons to impact before the vent is complete. This last point is even more important for AI: it runs a calculation on vent danger and is very cautious. By speeding up the vent, we can get the AI to vent in more situations.

50% emp damage reduction is just as valuable - flankers have less time to disable engines (and a single salamander won't do it anymore) and annoyances like thunders and claws are half as effective. Also ion beams disable half as much so you can safely lower shields or vent when being hit without catastrophic disabling.
Salamanders are also the bane of like... all existences.
This is where the different perception comes from.
I always end up giving everyone things with good mobility and decent shields, +hardened shields/front conversion where applicable. Salamanders/ion do not matter for those.
In big battles you want to get back behind allies once flux is high and higher capacity is really handy: gives a bigger buffer, you can't vent while staying on target(it'll backpedal and you get gangbanged).
Once you start biggish vents AI will also fire the missiles, easy to drop the ball and eat those with or without the reduced duration.

My perspective is a bit skewed as for the last few hours I just ran around with an Aurora/Apogee mix, with 10 officers+yourself those outstat and steamroll anything in the game(IR pulse/autopulse/phase lance spam).
Will get battlesize back to default and give lowtech/midline another go with mods, AI venting more could be an interesting improvement on hammer/plasma cannon sunder/whatever.

It’s cheaper to put RFC on a ship than equip rear facing point defense to deal with salamanders.
Rear facing point defense is very rarely not a good choice, later on almost every fight includes tons of fighters so it will find things to shoot at.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1886
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2018, 12:42:07 AM »

Point defense isn’t really good at shooting fighters. (Except flack)

Rear facing regular guns are better for that. LAGs, Assault chainguns etc.
Logged

Draba

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2018, 01:53:53 AM »

It’s cheaper to put RFC on a ship than equip rear facing point defense to deal with salamanders.
Rear facing point defense is very rarely not a good choice, later on almost every fight includes tons of fighters so it will find things to shoot at.
Point defense isn’t really good at shooting fighters. (Except flack)

Rear facing regular guns are better for that. LAGs, Assault chainguns etc.

2 extremes:
  • High tech with good shields(aurora, paragon, apogee).
    These do not care about salamanders in the first place, and their basic PD (PD laser, tac laser with gyros) is good against fighters.
  • Armored bricks with bad shields(enforcer, onslaught).
    Dunno how other people use these but I really doubt anyone actually skips PD because RFC has them covered.
    Vulcan is AWESOME at what it does and needs 25 flux instead of 160. Same for flak and it's 50 instead of 400.
    LAG/Assault chaingun in the back seem like really odd choices to me.
Logged

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2018, 07:59:11 AM »

Not sure why you would ever use an assault chaingun to kill fighters, that's like using a heavy blaster to kill fighters. The flux cost is far beyond the benefit, especially when flak exists. Not sure why you would ever use anything other than flack and vulcans for PD (if you have ballistics).


Salamanders are mostly a problem for ships that depend on maneuverability and don't have 360 degree shields. The aurora cares about salamanders a lot because it only really takes 1 salamander hitting to cripple it's maneuverability, and it depends on that maneuverability to be effective.

Resistant Flux Conduits is a top quality mod on any ship that doesn’t fit Safety Overrides.
Just curious, this makes it sound like you use SO on everything that can fit it, is that true?
Logged

Draba

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2018, 08:32:37 AM »

Salamanders are mostly a problem for ships that depend on maneuverability and don't have 360 degree shields. The aurora cares about salamanders a lot because it only really takes 1 salamander hitting to cripple it's maneuverability, and it depends on that maneuverability to be effective.

Aurora is the perfect candidate for front conversion, or you can omni salamanders if that's your thing, or accelerate into them so they don't get a clean engine hit.
On top of that you can have beam PD in the sides/back(those eat single missiles up). Getting an engine flameout from salamanders on Aurora needs a pretty big pilot/loadout error.

Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2794
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2018, 08:41:27 AM »

IMO Front Shield Conversion is more or less trap hullmod, at least for player ship.
Yes you can get shield 360. So what? You don't want to keep shields up for extended periods of time anyway, that's waste of flux.
If anything, I'd rather take Accelerated Shields - it improves your defenses AND allows you to raise shield later/drop it more often.
Logged

Draba

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2018, 08:53:13 AM »

IMO Front Shield Conversion is more or less trap hullmod, at least for player ship.
Yes you can get shield 360. So what? You don't want to keep shields up for extended periods of time anyway, that's waste of flux.
If anything, I'd rather take Accelerated Shields - it improves your defenses AND allows you to raise shield later/drop it more often.

Aurora always attacks with an advantage, has great flux stats and turns quickly to aim front shields.
When you actually have them up they are a net flux gain so can use weapons better under fire.
Not everything has to constantly fiddle with shields IMO.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7173
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2018, 09:08:24 AM »

@Draba

One way of doing things is high capacity + allies for venting. Another way is high dissipation + vent bonuses and venting at mid flux levels rather than maxed. That way you can vent right in front of the enemy, take very little damage, and stay fighting.
Logged

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2018, 09:19:26 AM »

The point of my comment was that a salamander landing on an aurora is a big deal because it depends on mobility so much unlike other slower ships that can tank everything anyway. I also don't think its trivial to always be on top of shield micro, it's quite easy to not notice a salamander in the chaos of a fleet battle, or to be have other more significant threats in front of you that require your shield to be elsewhere. If one lands and disable engines and you are in a bad spot, you're basically done for, so the aurora cares a lot, even if it has ways of dealing with it. The threat is much higher.
Logged

Draba

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
    • View Profile
Re: Noob needs advice. Colony, Fleet size and composition.
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2018, 09:23:01 AM »

@Draba

One way of doing things is high capacity + allies for venting. Another way is high dissipation + vent bonuses and venting at mid flux levels rather than maxed. That way you can vent right in front of the enemy, take very little damage, and stay fighting.

Yep, and the second one is obviously the way for slow, lowtech things.
Also works on hightech, but with fast ships/good capacity/good dissipation/worse armor just staying while the hardflux isn't too high and backing off is relatively more attractive.
Dominator burning in ignoring shots and shredding fighters is fun, that doesn't mean 360 front shields are somehow bad on everything.

I also don't think its trivial to always be on top of shield micro, it's quite easy to not notice a salamander in the chaos of a fleet battle, or to be have other more significant threats in front of you that require your shield to be elsewhere. If one lands and disable engines and you are in a bad spot, you're basically done for, so the aurora cares a lot, even if it has ways of dealing with it. The threat is much higher.

Change of words, I don't care about salamanders in an aurora.
I don't think I ever ate one without getting swarmed by fighters first, and I'm playing it as a  sausage-fingered brawler.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 09:26:19 AM by Draba »
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5