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Author Topic: Unused weapons  (Read 14792 times)

CopperCoyote

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Unused weapons
« on: December 06, 2018, 02:37:22 PM »

Some weapons are kind of underwhelming and are there to give a sense of progression, but there are some weapons i never use (or in a single limited way) and i wanted to check to make sure i'm not overlooking something.

Light mortar: not as bad as it was a few versions ago but still never use

Dual LMG: the drop in cost wasn't enough for me and i never use. (i might not use it at 4 op either)

Light needler: lots of discussion why on other posts.

LRPD laser: too much flux usage for what it does

Mining laser: ditto

Non-reaper single shot missiles: too unreliable, and i'd rather use the op else where

Assault chaingun: range too short to matter for non-frigates

Heavy machine gun: terrible PD due to lack of converging bullets. misses more than it should.

heavy needler: i've never liked this family of weapons and i occasionally use it myself but never trust ai to use it.

Thumper: not as bad as it used to be but really drops the ball on heavy armor ships because of residual armor (i wish the thumper THUMPED things with a few big bullets)

Ion pulser: range too short

mining blaster: ditto (but i use on my ship sometimes)

annihilator pod: too little ammo for the op cost. if it blasted 10 out at once then ok maybe but the pressure doesn't last long enough.

Proximity charge: I use, but the AI still shoots them up my tailpipe so no PCL for you.

Storm needler: I used to use before the residual armor poops all over its hull dps on any ships large enough to want to aim the stormy at.

Paladin PD: massive overkill or easily overwhelmed




So if anyone has times and places they use these please tell me. I want to like these weapons, but i never use, and if i have space to drag them back to the core I just sell them.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2018, 02:59:13 PM »

Dual LMG, Assault Chaingun, light mortar and HMG are all Safety Override weapons.

Light Needler is currently sort of lacking a role since the Railgun does everything it does better basically.
LRPD can be ok on dedicated beam ships, but it's very borderline. Mining Laser I actually prefer to both of the PD laser types.

Thumper I kinda agree with, slow turret rotation speed, low damage per shot, frag damage, high flux cost - there's just too many things wrong with it.

Mining Blaster is your early access medium energy damage dealer that has to exist because all the alternatives are high tech.

Ion Pulsers are great, Prox Charge launchers are gimmicky, Storm Needler is kinda trash right now (for similar reasons to the light needler and thumper).
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SCC

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2018, 03:05:17 PM »

I use light mortars in certain applications, typically whenever I need some HE while I'm already low on flux. LAGs might be superior, but I might not need LAGs either.
Dual machine gun is knife fighting weapon, so it's usage depends on whether you're SO'ing ships or not.
LR PD laser is actually better on some ships than normal PD laser, since it allows your ship to protect other ships with its PD.
Assault Chaingun and Heavy Machine Gun are both knife-fighting weapons for SO, again.
Ion Pulser is an assault weapon. It's useful on a Tempest, it allows it to barge in and disable the whole ship with its magazine. Other than that, it has limited use due to the short range.
Storm needler is great if you need lots of kinetic damage. In fact, that's the only kinetic weapon you need on your ship. 1500 damage per second to shields does miracles. I don't think anything but an Onslaught can utilise it properly, maybe some Legion loadouts.

Megas

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2018, 03:12:56 PM »

Light Mortar is useful now that it has 600 range.  The main reason not use to Light Mortar is the ships that can use it well become obsolete after early game.  On Centurion, I like two light mortars over one light assault gun due to flux efficiency.  It does not have the flux efficiency to use four top-of-the-line light weapons, but it can handle three, and two light mortars are cheaper than one light assault gun.

Dual light MG costs too much OP.  It might have use for Lashers later, except Lashers are no good later.

Light Needler is now a railgun clone that costs too much OP.  It is a classic "don't fix something that was not broken", and now it is sub-par for its cost.  It may have use if you absolutely need 700 range light ballistic, and you have light needler blueprint but not railgun.

LRPD laser only costs 30 flux since 0.8.  It is a little underpowered and does not excel at anything, but it is still a decent all-purpose beam weapon.

Mining laser is bad because it is too slow.  Yes, it is underpowered, but that would be tolerable if it was as quick as a PD laser.  As nearly as slow as tactical laser, it activates too late to be of any use.  If it was faster, it would be useful for times when player obtains IPDAI hullmod before the high-tech pack.

I occasionally use singleton missiles, especially if I have a few spare OP and nothing better to use.

Assault Chaingun is useless except for destroyers and some cruisers with Safety Override, and those become obsolete before endgame.

HMG is a close-range assault weapon.  It is a very niche weapon with or without Safety Override.

Old pre-0.9 heavy needler would be useful on Legion due to flux efficiency, but at its cost, I prefer Heavy AC over it.  At least Heavy Needler still has 800 range.

Thumper is a decent early game weapon for shredding weakened opponents.  It becomes obsolete eventually after player accumulates better, but it can be useful early when player does not have everything.

Ion pulser seems tricky to use and not as reliable as the more ordinary pulse laser.  It may not be a bad weapon per se, but I prefer pulse laser over it, and leave the stunning to Ion Cannon if I am so inclined.

Mining blaster now has the dubious honor of being the default starter weapon of its type (of medium energy) if you have not found any blueprints yet.  Flux efficiency is a killer, but if you have nothing else, you use what you have (or avoid those ships that use energy until you find better).  Aside from that, it is only optimal on Hyperion.

I like annihilator pod, one of the few missile weapons I do not mind using.  Lasts longer than Harpoons and more versatile.  I use this on Falcon (P), Dominator, and Onslaught.

Proximity charges are too overpriced for what they do.  Let Flash wings use this weapon, not you.

Storm Needler pairs alright with Heavy Mortars on Conquest, and is useful if you have Storm Needlers handy but little else.

Paladin is overshadowed by other options on the two ships that can use it effectively.
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Thaago

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2018, 03:16:43 PM »

Light Mortar: Not too much use, but it can give you some light HE if no other options. Cheap

Dual LMG: A fantastic brawling weapon for destroying shields. For brawling you are usually limited by slots rather than other considerations - this gives better damage in a small slot. It is also actually acceptable at killing missiles - worse than a vulcan but better than a lmg. Its less 'efficient' than the lmg, but only by 1 OP.

Light Needler: yeah its a worse railgun atm. Range should stay at 700 but needs efficiency back.

LRPD: Pretty good when massed, but tac laser + IPDAI overshadows it imo.

Mining lasers: completely useless. I'd rather mount nothing and save OP/put it into better flux stats.

Single shots: I think 1:1 is ok for missiles/OP. Obviously not much power, but very little cost. I will put single shot sabots on Hammerheads that are short on OP. I usually trade these out if I have access to better missiles.

Assault Chaingun/Heavy machinegun: the medium mount SO brawling weapons.

Heavy Needler: Marginal due to OP cost, though it does give DPS. I'd like the cost to come down now that the efficiency is 1:1.

Thumper: I have little experience; it seems a mediocre weapon like you say.

Ion Pulser: SO brawler

Mining Blaster: I don't like them, but sometimes you have no other options for energy or armor cracking. Has acceptable armor cracking.

Anni pod: Absolutely amazing on Onslaughts and on Dominators against big targets. Its a flux free stream of point defense clogging, shot blocking death.

Proximity charge: Ehhhhh. Really marginal IMO. They do shred fighters, but are slow and prone to friendly fire.

Storm Needler: Need shields gone? Get shields gone. Very good for killing remnant fleets - the BB sized enemies have the armor to counter, but smaller ships don't. Combines efficiency and excellent damage/slot. Range is short but Conquest can burst in/out and Onslaught can burn in.

Paladin PD: Haven't played with it, sorry.
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CopperCoyote

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2018, 03:58:38 PM »

Thank you for your perspectives. I'll try some of the other niche uses for these weapons. Also my bad on not noticing the flux cost change on LRPD

And please: if anyone else has ways to use these weapons i'm not clever enough to think of, please post them.
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dandylions

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2018, 04:05:11 PM »

I rarely use the 450 range weapons. I also rarely use any 1- or 2-shot missiles, but I'm the opposite of the "self-piloted SO/phase ship alpha strike assassin of doom" playstyle.

The light and heavy needlers theoretically have the advantage of burst damage. I think the intent is that if an enemy frigate or destroyer (maybe some cruisers) overextends itself and your side lands a needler barrage, they're done for. Whereas slow-and-steady gives them an opportunity to retreat. But the overload time is low (since each pellet does little damage) and I do agree the OP cost is a bit much in their current state.

The storm needler, on the other hand, I love. It's absolutely relentless, and my favorite shield-breaking weapon in the game. I like putting one of those and a mjolnir cannon on a Conquest (with the needler in the "front" slot to try to make up for some of the range deficit).

I don't use LRPD and mining lasers except out of necessity. Not enough DPS (but I don't usually take the +% damage to missiles and fighters skill), so I just get hit with damaged missiles as opposed to unblemished ones. Filling a Centurion or Scarab with them makes a fun ornament, though.

Paladin is crap, in my opinion. Large energy mounts (especially turrets) are so rare that I can never rationalize using it over something else. The fact that it has mediocre sustain doesn't help, and it's not the end-all-be-all of energy PD, either. Thinking about it, even with modded ships, I don't think this has ever seemed like The Right Choice.

I like the ion pulser. It has excellent burst, and while the range is wanting, I've had success using it to ward off intruders on longer-ranged ships (don't get too close, or you'll really regret it! just stay at range so I can slowly pummel you to death, thanks).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 04:09:56 PM by dandylions »
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cjuicy

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2018, 04:21:52 PM »

I use the Thumper on most SO builds and as a center mount for my Enforcers. Thumper absolutely burns through exposed hull and frigates for little OP and flux. Light mortars/Dual LMG/Ion Pulsers are good for SO, and the single missile options are for Drams and SO builds that need to freak out AI (single Sabot/Harpoon).
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eidolad

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2018, 05:04:01 PM »

Light mortars are still on my ships well into the cruiser-led-carrier-group phase.

I am perfectly happy with light mortars due to a) very low op and moderate flux cost  b) range c) eat armor.  Seems to be few early game options for guns that eat armor.  Light mortars especially do well on overgunned Hammerheads (who rely on Accel. Ammo Feeder and know when to cease fire and evade) coupled with like-range shield busting guns (take your pick).  I find them a must when I start out.  They stay worthy longtime.

Mining lasers should get some luv too...they do fine when you have overlapping arcs and need SOMETHING to shoot (Salamanders approaching a rear arc, trying to take out engines?  Got some pop guns for that...)

Annihilator rockets have a ton of ammo compared to anything else and are great allies in the flux war.  They also are great for cheaply pushing an enemy to strafe...right into a bad situation.
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lethargie

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2018, 05:38:44 PM »

annihilator rocket work well on the pirate variant of the falcon. It's definitely a weapon that work better on small engagement. In fact most missiles really shine on early engagement when both fleet are small and overwhelming firepower can give you a quick victory.

mining laser is what you get early game when weapons are really hard to find

Lrpd are more flux efficient then tactical laser for barely less range. I like to use them from time to time to support midrange ship.

Storm needler work very well on one arm of a player controlled dominator. Just shoot it when you need it. Actually not that bad at killing hull too.

I have had some success with the heavy machine gun on a conquest. It has short range but the flux efficiency is magnificent

The medium needler does more dps and better accuracy than autocannons, so I have been using it some times to times. However the op cost is quite high

the small needler is kinda hard to justify over the small dual autocannon. 100 range and a bit of accuracy for 4 op is not a superb trade
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Megas

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 06:28:00 PM »

I forgot that I also use Annihilator pods on Doom and Odyssey.  Doom is a viable brawler thanks to Mine Strike distracting (or killing) enemies, and a minor stream of Annihilators can help it brawl a bit better or at least block a few incoming shots.  Odyssey changes for 0.9a has pushed it toward brawling, and it can imitate Onslaught with two Annihilators up front.

I would use mining lasers if they begin shooting faster.  They seem to take too much time to line up a shot before firing, even with Advanced Turret Gyros.

@ lethargie:  Yes, Falcon (P) can slaughter things with Annihilator spam if teamed up with another ship that puts hard flux on enemies' shields.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 06:31:53 PM by Megas »
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2018, 11:42:20 PM »

The Light Mortar, Mining Laser, Mining Blaster, Thumper, and single-shot non-reaper missiles are poverty weapons and are supposed to be bad. That said, the Light Mortar has a small niche on SO Lashers and Brawlers, the Mining Blaster can be legitimately useful on the Tempest and Hyperion, and the Thumper can be used as a poor man's Needler in a pinch.

The Dual LMG, Assault Chaingun, Heavy Machine Gun, and Ion Pulser are all primarily Safety Overrides weapons. They are incredibly powerful when combined with the Safety Overrides hullmod. The DLMG and HMG provide SO ships with overwhelming kinetic DPS as well as decent PD when used en-mass; one HMG isn't great, 3 HMGs on a SO Enforcer are quite good PD. The Assault Chaingun is the SO ship's close range armor ripper that means you can't just drop shields and tank the machine gun rounds on your armor. The Ion Pulser goes well on SO Falcons or Eagles, backing up the HMGs with a massive amount of ion damage as well as packing a decent energy alpha strike. It can also go on non-SO Tempests or Wolves, as they have the mobility to back off after they dump the Ion Pulser's alpha strike, or on an Autopulse Sunder for a secondary alpha strike.

There's a reason the LRPD is in the mid-tech blueprint package. Mid-tech is focused on fleet-level synergies between multiple supporting ships, and if you put LRPD on all of the ships you're deploying their PD arcs will overlap and cover each other. A torpedo fired at one ship will be focused and shot down by PD from multiple ships.

Light and Heavy Needlers are worth using simply because of their massive burst kinetic damage. For example, consider an Afflictor that mounts 4 Light Needlers. 4*15*50 = 3000 KE damage. On shields that's 6000 hard flux damage, enough to instantly fluxlock any destroyer besides the Medusa. The Afflictor can also use phase time accelleration to make the Light Needler fire 3 times faster, and increase the burst damage to an effective 9000 hard flux with Entropy Amplifier. Shields can be dropped, but they can also be forced up by sustained HE pressure from various weapons like the HIL or Haephestus, or by combining the Needler burst with a high-damage HE burst like a Mauler, Hellbore, a missile or the Doom's Mine Strike. The Heavy Needler in particular can be easily combined with Ion Beams on the Falcon and Eagle, which presents a no-win situation; either the shields are down and the Ion Beam disables your ship, or the shields are up, the Needlers instantly flux you out, and the Ion Beam disables your ship anyway.
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Eji1700

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2018, 11:48:58 PM »

Some weapons are kind of underwhelming and are there to give a sense of progression, but there are some weapons i never use (or in a single limited way) and i wanted to check to make sure i'm not overlooking something.

Light mortar: not as bad as it was a few versions ago but still never use

Dual LMG: the drop in cost wasn't enough for me and i never use. (i might not use it at 4 op either)

Light needler: lots of discussion why on other posts.

LRPD laser: too much flux usage for what it does

Mining laser: ditto

Non-reaper single shot missiles: too unreliable, and i'd rather use the op else where

Assault chaingun: range too short to matter for non-frigates

Heavy machine gun: terrible PD due to lack of converging bullets. misses more than it should.

heavy needler: i've never liked this family of weapons and i occasionally use it myself but never trust ai to use it.

Thumper: not as bad as it used to be but really drops the ball on heavy armor ships because of residual armor (i wish the thumper THUMPED things with a few big bullets)

Ion pulser: range too short

mining blaster: ditto (but i use on my ship sometimes)

annihilator pod: too little ammo for the op cost. if it blasted 10 out at once then ok maybe but the pressure doesn't last long enough.

Proximity charge: I use, but the AI still shoots them up my tailpipe so no PCL for you.

Storm needler: I used to use before the residual armor poops all over its hull dps on any ships large enough to want to aim the stormy at.

Paladin PD: massive overkill or easily overwhelmed




So if anyone has times and places they use these please tell me. I want to like these weapons, but i never use, and if i have space to drag them back to the core I just sell them.

ion pulser- i use this pretty frequently. It's a little hard to find the perfect ship for it, but it's certainly a beating if you can get the shots in.

annihlator pod: so this seems like a perfectly fine weapon if you want to use the slots for pressure rather than burst. I've used these on both mora's and ventures to perfectly satisfactory results, and in other spots as well.  I do  think they're supposed to be the "common as dirt" option, but the weapon economy needs a spit and polish pass anyways.

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TaLaR

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2018, 11:57:51 PM »

Light and Medium Needlers are too easy to armor tank. Medium has decent enough stats to be somewhat useful anyway, light does not.
AI will gladly armor tank them when already at high flux, but lacks planning to do so preventatively.
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Techhead

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Re: Unused weapons
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2018, 12:04:19 AM »

The HMG gets labeled a SO weapon, but as long as your ship is fast enough, it's so flux-efficient you don't even need SO to use it.

On the Mining Laser and Blaster, I wonder if they'd have more of a niche for themselves if they were HE weapons. Mining Blaster would be solidly established as an armor-cracker, and Mining Laser would have its niche chewing up armored fighters that other HE weapons have issues hitting.

I find the single-shot missiles are more useful for threatening the AI into keeping its shields up than actually firing. Although sometimes you really do need that one armor-crack, so go ahead and pull the trigger.
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