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Author Topic: Is Starsector too easy? And what's the deal with hiding the Spacer option?  (Read 5071 times)
Euphytose
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« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2019, 01:18:36 AM »

Yes, this is something I think most people agree with. You go from space peasant to overlord in a matter of a few real-time hours.
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Midnight Kitsune
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« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2019, 09:10:13 AM »

At the same time, we're all pretty high level players. I'd like to see how the stipend helps out the newer players.

Sorry for necro-ing but I made an account just for this.  Just got about 10 hours under normal ( with one 7h run ) so I'd consider myself a new player. Here's my two cents:

As much as I'd love to sink another 100 hours into the game, the meta is just too easy. 2h in everything seems to lose purpose as your power level just explodes.
Hyperspace travel is essentially hassle-free. The factions are either not aggressive enough or they don't have enough fleets overall ( and I'm on negative with all but Hegemony ). The only hassle is the annoyance of navigating the "storms" and occasionally avoiding the very few stronger faction fleets. Avoiding the fleets is fairly easy as the strong ones are generally much slower.

The skill-driven power explosion was unsatisfactory as well. Overall skills feel meaningless when you get so many so quickly.

The stipend + commission down-right break the already fragile economy.
By fragile I mean:
 The over-supply of ships ( they are more common than ore or basic supplies .... )
 The ship prices are ludicrously low. Even at 2x their current cost they would still be ridiculously low. ( I had an Onslaught with 1D 4h in, did not break the bank either )
 Trade routes are way too easy to abuse ( it's worse than in the usual grind-trading systems since your viable options are actually lower but the payouts much higher )
 Rewards are way too big for non-combat "quests". ( to be read as those without a cost sink )
 Basic supplies are way too cheap and abundant.
 I have more weapons than storage slots to put them in ( from salvage ). Granted, they are not rare but nor did I ever feel the need for rare weapons or stronger ships ( 7h in this run ).
 
To make things worse, the faction standings are too easy to recover from and overall feel very artificial. They switch and change too often and easily, making them lose substance.
IMHO accepting a comission should be a big, game-changing thing, not just an easy way into cash.

Not much to comment on the combat. I skip it whenever I can, due to the overall goal of this run. The goal was to create a faction and ( possibly ) wipe the rest out. Simple stuff that should prove challenging and lengthy. While I'm hoping the end game will prove to be more challenging, I very much doubt it. It's already more of a chore than a challenge.

Sure, I can always "role play my own difficulty" but it feels unnatural.
A couple things.
That d modded onslaught was cheap because of the d mod. Iirc, they they cut the sale price down by 80percent per mod
Alex is addressing the free money issue from colonies while making expeditions much less of a hassle.
If you are bored of vanilla, try the Nexerlin mod. Factions are much more aggressive in it than vanilla
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Megas
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« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2019, 08:56:05 AM »

Yes, this is something I think most people agree with. You go from space peasant to overlord in a matter of a few real-time hours.
I consider that a good thing.  Not everyone has unlimited time to grind on a game.

P.S.  Since I do not exploit all of the tricks for optimal play, it takes more than a few hours to reach overlord level.  On some games, those hours are spread out in days instead of all in one session.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 09:00:02 AM by Megas » Logged
Euphytose
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« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2019, 09:14:41 AM »

Yes, this is something I think most people agree with. You go from space peasant to overlord in a matter of a few real-time hours.
I consider that a good thing.  Not everyone has unlimited time to grind on a game.

P.S.  Since I do not exploit all of the tricks for optimal play, it takes more than a few hours to reach overlord level.  On some games, those hours are spread out in days instead of all in one session.

The game is the journey from that space peasant to overlord. Once you have your end-game fleet, it's over. You just destroy any fleet effortlessly. Might as well play an ARPG. Reaching the end-game so quickly is most definitely an issue.

If you really want a quick game, simply set your starting money and level very high and that's it.

But you said before that you exploit infinite money bugs anyway, so your opinion about the topic isn't really relevant. I'm wondering why you even bother playing and don't simply spawn your final fleet with the console.
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Megas
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« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2019, 11:17:15 AM »

There is no console without mods, and I usually play Starsector without mods.

I have no problem abusing exploits found within the game, but those (that were or are truly game breaking) have been and will be fixed eventually.  Part of the fun is abusing exploits (or simply playing honestly but savvy enough) to make an overpowered character that can destroy all enemies.  Adding a third-party one in via mod or cheating with devmode or settings.json changes to get there is pointless (if not building a mod to test stuff).  Might as well declare "I win!" and move on to something else.

I did not use infinite money until after my fourth game (because I did not know of it then).  By the time I was aware of it, I played enough.  I was in no mood to play whack-a-mole with pirates and pathers by then (and I need to resume work on other projects).  I started a fifth game to try out the Commerce bug, but after building up millions quickly, I quit.  If I play a new game again before 0.9.1 release, I will gladly abuse that bug; but, I think I will wait until next release due to other things I need to deal with.

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The game is the journey from that space peasant to overlord. Once you have your end-game fleet, it's over. You just destroy any fleet effortlessly.
Overlord that can crush fleets is the best part.  The journey is not the fun part (for me), crushing or destroying the world with your overlord powers is the fun part.  Why would I want to quit the game so soon after I grind for hours or longer to reach overload?

Obtaining endgame fleet alone is not quite the end.  Having enough resources to replace it several times over relatively painlessly (with high income and all of the blueprints I want) could be.  However, it is annoying that I do not find enough blueprints until enough time passes that I could destroy the core worlds multiple times.

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Might as well play an ARPG.
Sounds like Starfarer/Starsector.  Once combat begins, you shoot things up.

What I do not want to do is spend days or weeks grinding for levels, items, or virtual cash like in various online games.  I would not be surprised if some players have been conditioned that such tedious gameplay is normal and how things ought to be.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 11:28:14 AM by Megas » Logged
Igncom1
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« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2019, 11:44:10 AM »

I'm still on my current campaign just to try out new fleet compositions, explore, and pillage the hegemony.

It's not hard, and I have infinite money, plus I'm on easy mode. But I suppose I was never really looking for a hard edge challenge of my skills. I just want to see space ships shoot each other and stuff.

I could see the game being harder, but to be fair even then it's really easy just to not screw with any of the major powers, if anything the hardest test right now is defending your colony against expeditions. Death fleet or not, you need to be ready to fight one or dozens of enemy death fleets coming to steal your stuff. Which is fun in it's own way. I like fighting the expeditions at end game, it's a great excuse to have hour long battles against massive arsenals of stuff with your back against the wall, fighting side by side with a factions you have dictated and created.

It could be harder, sure, but honestly I play easy mode so I don't have to care about the money. That's my perspective, the game thrives on it's reasons to fight fleet battles, not on it's economic management.
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Euphytose
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« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2019, 12:15:55 PM »

There is no console without mods, and I usually play Starsector without mods.

You're missing out. I don't use many of them, but the ones that are well made only improve the game. I don't think I would want to play without Nexerelin ever again.

I have no problem abusing exploits found within the game

And that's where we differ completely. I don't understand the fun in that. Were you doing a speedrun, why not? But this isn't the case.

Overlord that can crush fleets is the best part.  The journey is not the fun part (for me), crushing or destroying the world with your overlord powers is the fun part.  Why would I want to quit the game so soon after I grind for hours or longer to reach overload?

And again, cannot disagree more. Destroying everything extremely easily is no fun at all. When I was younger it would have been, for sure, but not anymore. Not sure how old you are but maybe it's just an age thing. Because I would also have used exploits at that time.

Sounds like Starfarer/Starsector.  Once combat begins, you shoot things up.

That's not exactly ARPG combat though, there's a lot of thought to it, at least when you're still building your fleet.

What I do not want to do is spend days or weeks grinding for levels, items, or virtual cash like in various online games.  I would not be surprised if some players have been conditioned that such tedious gameplay is normal and how things ought to be.

I hate grinding just as you do. But there are other ways to make the end game take much longer to reach. I've already suggested that you start in a "new world", with barely anything for sale, and it develops over time. Right now, you spawn, and there are already end game stuff for sale. One Tri-Tachyon loan is enough to give you a huge boost.

Edit: In fact it's more than just a boost, it lets you bypass the very early game completely.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 12:24:43 PM by Euphytose » Logged
SQW
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« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2019, 04:14:09 PM »

Took one day as a pure trader/explorer to get enough money to equip a half decent fleet. By day 2 or 3, I got a Conquest as salvage by just following a friendly expedition fleet with huge cargo space salvaging everything in sight. I end up x10 the cost of all the ships while making resale value the same as vanilla to not snowball like crazy.

I don't know how some people find the early game to be hard. I was making a mint with a cargo hauler making shortage runs and scavenging. If I was going down the bounty hunting route, I'd have snowballed even faster. It is incredibly easy to avoid engaging anything you can't kill in the early game that you basically have to fall asleep on the wheel to get caught.
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Megas
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« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2019, 04:14:39 PM »

@ Euphytose:  I played some Starsector mods before, years ago.  Even many of the so-called balanced (and quality) ones introduce power creep that I am not fond of.  I remember Nexerelin fondly.

I am not much into speedruns.  I may attempt them if that is a way to unlock features in some games (like DoomRL).  I tend to prefer clearing levels for 100%, and I tend to take my time.  For StarSector, my endgame goal tends to be "survey ALL planets in the sector and acquire ALL blueprints".  I tend to get worn out by endless whack-a-hole pirates and pathers by the time half the sector gets explored.  If I manage to explore everything, my next goal probably would be exterminate all factions, although pirates would probably wipe out half the core worlds without my help if I did nothing to stop them.

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Destroying everything extremely easily is no fun at all.
I can understand that.  Been there before myself, long ago.

I am relatively old, and have played games since the late '70s.  I probably was a power-hungry munchkin, then so-called "grew out of it" in (I guess) the '90s, then came full circle back to power-hungry munchkin by about the '00s (after playing much PvP against others more ruthless than I).  Now, I do not have much time for games, and I prefer to win (or accomplish the mission) as soon as possible.  I prefer to treat games as war.  The more efficient and the more lopsided the victory is, the better.  The best fight is the one where I win before any actual fighting starts.  Failing that, stack the deck so far in your favor that the enemy does not stand a chance.  That said, outright cheating (like IDDQD for invulnerability and IDKFA for all weapons) is not allowed because it defeats the point of the game.  I think the popular term for this in role-playing games is "Combat As War", which is somewhat opposed to "Combat As Sport", where fair (or balanced), challenging, and dramatic fights are encouraged, not to be avoided.

I can understand some do not want to be ruthless demigods when they play.  (I do!)

That said, I do have some playing quirks with Starsector that may result in sub-optimal play, sort of like unofficial conducts.  For example, I do not want to accept any commission because doing so will implant that "Commissions" tab on intel, forever branding my character with that scarlet letter.  I do not use other resources because I do not want to deal with more headaches, even if the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.  For example, cores and inspections.  (I use Free Port because it makes no difference if five factions instead of three send invaders that are auto-resolved away.)
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angrytigerp
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« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2019, 03:37:45 PM »

I think a good middle ground might be to rework industry a bit more. Right now, as it stands, if you have enough banked to survive the first month or two of unrest and/or repairing or constructing a port (assuming you captured one), it will very rapidly and easily go into the green, and you'll be pocketing 6 figures on a monthly basis. It only increases as you build more industries and/or add more cores.

I could definitely see just reducing industrial profits by like 50% even helping avoid the exponential wealth curve once you establish an empire.
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intrinsic_parity
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« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2019, 08:12:53 PM »

I'm pretty sue alex has made some very major changes to industries in dev build (see blog posts). Stuff like limiting the number of industries with slots.
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