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Author Topic: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"  (Read 5221 times)

SymbioteRose

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[0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« on: November 20, 2018, 04:00:52 PM »

So yesterday on the Discord there was a rather extensive discussion about the overall progression mechanics in Starsector and whether the latest batch of editions were overpowered in its context. While it makes sense for balancing concerns to be quite rampant given the alpha state of the game, and subsequently for people to want to bring new aspects of the game in line with their own perceptions of difficulty and player effort - it is important to keep in mind the concept of escalating scope and its relevance in the balance of new features which are lacking in context. By viewing the game as a series of stages - each with their own variant types of primary challenges and emphasised mechanics - we can better form the relationships between these new systems and the prior game experience.

As a note, this is written from the perspective of a normal difficulty, frigate start, no tutorial player. This experience seems to well encompass the challenges of the early game without going too far into self-imposed difficulty via the spacer start,utilises some of the same principles as the frigate state - only slower.

Gameplay Tiers
Starsector's progression system lends itself rather easily to a system of tiers, or stages, defined by the primary goals and available resources to the player with regular frequency. As of 0.9a, they are as follows:
- Early Game: Extremely small, low power fleet. Tied to core worlds for missions. Everywhere is dangerous, bounties are  barely accessible, hard to explore. Limited fuel, supplies, ships.
- Early Exploration / Bounty Hunting: Have salvaged / bought enough ships to form a reasonable frigate / destroyer (perhaps single cruiser) fleet. Still dangerous roaming fleets (screw pirate armadas), but bounties start to make more sense, and exploration can be done to a relatively safe degree (disregarding beacon  systems). Fuel and supply management becomes more planned around this point rather than coming from desperation. At this point you are building capital (both money and ships) to scale up your ability to fight bounties and exploration threats. Still limited in options.
- Commissions / Advanced Bounties: Have a capable amount of ships for hunting most to all bounties. Around the time taking commissions becomes feasible, or when colonies actually become defensible from expeditions. Basic necessities are essentially secure given proper management (IE Keeping adequate funds in case of SNAFU), and the options of the game start to open up significantly in the exploration department. This state of the game can be rather easily maintained in prior versions - most active threats do not present much of a challenge - leaving the player to actively pursue risks in order to obtain the greatest reward.
- Early Colonies: Note: While colonies can be founded earlier, the disruptive nature of expeditions makes especially profitable ones difficult without a good fleet. Making significant progress in dominating market share will and should attract attention which requires the player to have a well established military - but small temporary tech-mining camps far away from the matters of the core worlds should be relatively safe if minimally rewarding in things other than blueprints and a few supplies. Have a colony capable of supporting the fleet without relying on core world missions constantly. Most money invested into colony and its defence. Not a major player in the sector. Transition phase - provides a place to put money after fleet is established which provides a steady and constant sense of progression. Exploration once again becomes a priority as you look for artefacts to improve colony effectiveness.
- Late Colonies: Self-sustaining, self defending colonies which provide a constant source of income. Main player interaction comes through improving with exploration content and dealing with bases. Exploration is still priority for additional colony sites and additional artefacts. Specialised fleets become more sustainable due to custom production. Main threats are Luddic Path cells, Pirate Armadas, and Remnants. Faction wars and raiding would be a things - but there are some issues there. Missing higher level interactions to elicit proper player involvement.

Early game at the moment feels relatively fine in this scheme, there's a significant level of challenge and tactics to be overcome, and it lasts long enough to make getting bast the great limitations feel immensely rewarding. Early exploration and bounty hunting also has the same idea, the sense of progression as you get to fight stronger opponents and explore farther and grow in power - good. Commissions are neat, but good Independent standing is overall better. Commissions would benefit from opening up higher level options for the player in terms of increasing the faction's power and being given the capacity to perform higher level actions with them (for those who don't want to manage their own faction). In the prior version of the game, exploration sort of lost its purpose compared to bounties at this point - but with colonies it is greatly incentivised. The early colony game is nice, though the power of expeditions felt a bit random. Pirate scaling was fine. Luddic cells are rather agreed to be broken for a variety of reasons including the difficulty of locating them (sans cheesy methods and disproportionate effects), so not much has to be said there. In my experience, there was enough expedition spam along with pirates and Luddic cluckery that I was rather busy running everywhere trying to keep the growth rate up whilst defending my bases - and suffering horribly when that failed. Quite some effort there, and for good reason, because the payoff is quite good.

And then there's the late colony game. You have your good accessible trading colony, you are at peace with everyone you can be at peace with. Ideally the AI inspections are paid off and you are making a great deal of money each month. Breaking the Remnants is the big focus now, as well as exploring for AI, blueprints, and more locations. After all of the pain, things are finally working out...

"Colonies are overpowered money printers, no player effort."

Ah yes that. Because this wasn't entirely the case before.

The issue with colonies at the moment is the same as the late-game bounty stage in the prior versions - they are a pick for which there is no stone to break. You see, colonies are something which acts on a much greater scope than just a single fleet. Of course the money they make seems quite large if you are only using it on projects which are meant to be accessible without them - IE your singular fleet and its (as trained from its scarcity days) quite minimal maintenance. The solution isn't to make colonies weaker so you are still operating within that minimalist mindset - its to introduce factors which are appropriate to its scope - things which require large sources of income which are impractical with a singular mercenary fleet and have effects which reflect that scale. Getting a colony setup to be self-sustainable should still provide the same reward as it does now, but that reward should just be a gateway into another round of interesting options rather than a mere income source for your standard operations. Thus, a new tier is opened, and then colonies can be balanced in the context of that greater scope - rather than restricted arbitrarily for short sighted gain.

There are a few methods under which this could be done - most involving an expansion of the faction system. I do want to clarify: Commissions should provide an alternative to colonies for players who don't want to bother with the faction aspects of the game (I know there are quite a few out there), but this is mostly focused on the faction system for now. Diplomacy is a system which would add a great deal of depth to colony management and add greater nuance to the system than the current, "keep everyone above -49 for accessibility reasons" logic which is currently the case. I would imagine a system of wars and alliances which invite more powerful attacks than the standard expeditions - but also provide powerful benefits or special missions depending on the factions involved. Alliances would provide bonuses to counter the effects of being at war with other factions - and would incentivise military actions to acquire special resources from their territories / expand your power. Faction wars would not be things you could deal with using a single fleet - so you would need to divert funds into AI fleets which would support your forces in battle and be used to defend / attack systems. These fleets would have a limited range to prevent abuse, and would be expensive for exploration anyway, but they would become a necessity for organised warfare. You could assign officers to command fleets and give them leadership skills via a promotion system perhaps - removing them from your pool and putting them in a faction Admiral list. This war system would also be useful for countering active threats from things other than established factions, considering there's probably some scary things planned in the future which would also need a great amount of power to defeat.

Besides war, there's a few other things which would scale quite nicely with the funds of colonies. For instance - maintenance on the various communications, sensor, and navigation relays you construct and capture would have a cost - those which are not maintained having a tendency to fail after some time (still useful to temporarily capture or construct, but for things like colonies and defended systems - you want something permanent. Large research projects which require the construction of stations in fringe systems and their defence would also be neat, providing more logistical benefits which can be utilised to counter BIG THREATS and initiate more projects. Ideally there would be a threat which escalates based on your faction's power (XCOM LONG WAR) so each benefit would feel necessary, and you would feel the pressure to keep progress going without the odd pseudo random nature of the blimey Ludds. Reinstating old Domain technology is quite a fun concept given the tech starved nature of the galaxy, and having the player play a major role in that feels like a natural progression of the game.

But alas, these are just a few ideas which seems to fit in a bit more than the nerf colonies argument. Increasing the scope of the late game would provide so much more content and depth to the game than trying to stay in the early game mindset. Just wanted to put them out there. Ciao!
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Sendrien

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2019, 08:56:05 AM »

Just found this thread while looking for something else. I hope Alex read this, because the points made by the OP are very good. The colony feature is absolutely brilliant, and adds so much to the rich universe of Starsector. But once you build out a colony, and it becomes self sustaining, it does feel like this should unlock the most advanced phase of gameplay (i.e. the True Endgame), or things that can only be done on a colony/faction-wide scale.

Perhaps this is to answer the question: why did you build a colony and found a faction? To what end have you achieved these things?

Knowing Alex, he already has something hidden up his sleeve. My hope is that these endgame goals somehow tie neatly with the lore/story of Starsector presented so far.
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Megas

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2019, 09:23:54 AM »

Player can start with Hammerhead or Apogee and progression is still as posted by OP.  Those starts simply bypass some of the obnoxious early-game grind, not unlike early arcade games like Tempest that gave huge score bonus to those that start later than level 1.

Early colonies can be tech mines, and if expeditions come and they cannot be defended, abandon them.  I noticed that even Persean League had targeted my tech colony just for producing two fuel!  It is blatantly obvious that the game will throw something bigger than pirates if the first pirate raid is insufficient.

Re: Excess income... Spend that income to send fleets at problems because, currently, they are too many things that can only be solved by the player, and I do not have enough time to do what I want to do before I must stop what I am doing and put out a fire somewhere or play space cop in the sector before my colony gets hurt or a core world decivilizes because major factions refuse to stop pirates and instead throw everything at my colonies.

Currently, I like being able to ignore bounties and expeditions because I already spend a lot of time cleaning up pirates and pathers, and get little time to either explore or raid.

Quote
Perhaps this is to answer the question: why did you build a colony and found a faction? To what end have you achieved these things?
At the very least, independence from the graces of other factions.  No need to rely on Hegemony, Independents, or anything for storage, supplies, fuel, ships, and weapons.  A real home.  Later, build an empire.  If factions do not like it (i.e., throw endless expeditions), final goal becomes extermination - there can be only one faction in the sector.  Victory to the last one standing.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 09:31:44 AM by Megas »
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FooF

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2019, 08:06:17 AM »

All good stuff OP (welcome to the forums!) but colonies are decidedly "middle-game" territory by Alex's own admission. They are stepping stones for the late game, whatever that may be.

By the time I get a colony up, the game is essentially over: the content has run out. Maintaining and exploiting the colony becomes an end unto itself and raiding the core worlds or toppling factions has no real purpose besides "something to do." Whether or not we'll get a true story mode or endgame remains to be seen but Alex has hinted that he has ideas for all that but it has remained close-to-the-vest. That being said, Alex has said quite a few times that this is not a 4X game and may never be, even though it leans in that direction at times. All-out-wars and huge controllable AI fleets will probably make it in eventually but factions expanding and whatnot is something he's repeatedly shot down thus far. Whether or not there is some "big bad" to fight against is also something that hasn't been hinted at.

However, prior to this version, there was nothing in the game that I would risk losing a ship or fleet over but now...? Now there's a whole bunch of stuff I would gladly sacrifice a Paragon for if it meant I could wipe out a battlestation, defend a colony, get rare blueprints, etc. In that respect, gathering ships is no longer the end unto itself and took 0.9 to get us just to that point. It's a huge step toward long-term goals but as you succinctly stated, we're still not in the end game yet and the content just isn't there.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 08:10:29 AM by FooF »
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Megas

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2019, 08:39:22 AM »

All good stuff OP (welcome to the forums!) but colonies are decidedly "middle-game" territory by Alex's own admission. They are stepping stones for the late game, whatever that may be.
For that to be middle-game, game needs to stop throwing endgame threats at the player after that first pirate raid fails, not to mention Pathers with their huge Colossus 2 doom fleets and their second-tier battlestations.  Player needs to be able to destroy endgame threats shortly after that first colony gets built or it will burn to the ground.

Colony game in 0.9a is effectively endgame, perhaps the early stage.

Gathering ships and weapons has been replaced by gathering their blueprints.  Finding many ships and weapons is still hard, but once player has a blueprint (and a nanoforge to ensure pristine ships), he can produce a huge stack of most of them whenever he wants.  Capital spam requires multiple Heavy Industries, though.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 08:42:56 AM by Megas »
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Megas

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2019, 09:01:38 AM »

- Early Exploration / Bounty Hunting: Have salvaged / bought enough ships to form a reasonable frigate / destroyer (perhaps single cruiser) fleet. Still dangerous roaming fleets (screw pirate armadas), but bounties start to make more sense, and exploration can be done to a relatively safe degree (disregarding beacon  systems). Fuel and supply management becomes more planned around this point rather than coming from desperation. At this point you are building capital (both money and ships) to scale up your ability to fight bounties and exploration threats. Still limited in options.
This is the point of the game when named bounties spike from 50k to 150k+ with very few sub-150k bounties.  This happens around near the end of 206.  I still have a ragtag fleet of destroyers, maybe cruiser (probably the starter Apogee, maybe a Falcon too).  The enemy jumps from pirates' beat-up destroyers and frigates to deserters' (nearly) pristine cruisers (or a single capital) and as many small ships are my fleet.  Scaling needs to be smoother, and the big stuff delayed longer (if player did not fight so many bounties yet).
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RawCode

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2019, 05:21:13 PM »

raids that just want to disturb your industry via raid (not bombing) is not "endgame threat" and basically is not threat at all, you can ignore such raid and your penalty is cut of income, nothing more.


colony stuff should be integral part of game, from very begining to very end, not something that divide game into two separate ones.
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Megas

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2019, 05:36:15 PM »

It is an endgame threat because faction expeditions are about on par with 200k+ bounty (they usually have a near pristine capital and some cruisers), and pather fleets and battlestation are huge.

It would be nice if colony was useful for much of the game, but as currently implemented, it is not.  Effective colony defense is possible only with a fleet that can deal with endgame threats.
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RawCode

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2019, 06:40:32 PM »

sadly, i won't agree with you, probably i will record how "endgame super fleet" got wiped with 3 chain deployed medusas and t2 lowtech space station.

or how double patrols wipe floor with very strong expedition.

and absolutely won't post about "just pay 100k for first expedition instead of trying to defend" (this actually main part of setting colony inside askonia madrun)
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Megas

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2019, 06:39:20 AM »

I tried a new game where I built up two colonies as soon as possible (for military base and battlestations), and I had a mob of destroyers of various types and an Apogee.  Destroyers were Enforcers and Mules, plus two Medusa, Hammerhead, and Sunder from heavy industry.  (Had Falcon and Heron in queue, but they were not built in time.)  First pirate raid was repelled by passing merchant fleets (before I could make it back to system).  Then I get first faction expedition warning after that, then a second one shortly after.  First faction expedition made it about the time my colonies grew to size 4... and attracted active pather cells.  I met faction expedition one with my fleet of destroyers led by Apogee.  First expedition had Apogee, several Heron, and a lot of frigates, probably about on par with a 180k or 200k bounty.  Though I won that fight, it was brutal.  A third of my fleet was wiped, and battlestation lost a module or two.  I have another expedition that will arrive before my station and fleet can fully recover, and I have a pather cell (that probably has a battlestation and/or big fleets) that I need to hunt down before they wreck my industries.  I probably need to baby my colonies from this point on, and I cannot abandon colonies bigger than size 3.

I suppose colonies in midgame is doable, but it is a hard struggle that player does not need to put himself through.  I still think it is a better idea to do colonies during endgame when player is stronger and can save himself much grief.

I guess I could bribe expedition, especially with the Commerce infinite money exploit, but if I need to spend money to avoid expeditions, it means my fleet was not strong enough, and better to wait until my fleet is enough so that bribing is not necessary.  If I need to bribe, then my fleet as not strong enough to deal with pather cells which cannot be bribed (only mollified by removing most of the good industries), and I cannot let my colonies grow to size 4.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 06:53:05 AM by Megas »
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Plantissue

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2019, 04:30:00 PM »

The problem with colonies is that you need a lot of money (say 1 million for the sake of argument) so you don't need to babysit them defending them against every threat. So instead of doing what is normally considered fun, to fight and hunt various bounties, you tend to end up for the first year of the game doing boring but fantastically lucrative trade missions as they are the fastest real time way to get money. Or black market smuggling which is fun, but can tend to get into save point problems. There really isn't a way to just plonk down a colony, unless the colony is barely profitable that you are willing to wait an ingame year to get your money back.
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Goumindong

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2019, 10:08:48 AM »

You really dont need to babysit them. Anything at 125% and under will make money even with a few defenses and no production. You can add one production type to one level (besides refining) so long as you dont add AI cores and wtill avoid LP terrorists. You can even produce your own ships so long as you dont upgrade to an orbital works.

That leaves you only with pirate bases and theyre not that common or damaging enough to be that much of a hinderance. Plus, by avoiding the expeditions and LP you drastically reduce the amount of swatting you have to do to keep your colony working so dealing with pirates isnt that big a deal
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RawCode

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2019, 06:51:24 AM »

you may ignore lp and pirates completely, 4 stability penalty is not problem for your main colony ever without any industry skills.
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SapphireSage

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2019, 09:56:04 AM »

you may ignore lp and pirates completely, 4 stability penalty is not problem for your main colony ever without any industry skills.

Not necessarily, pirates and lp both affect stability, but pirates hit accessibility as well and both of these stats can greatly affect a colonies profitability.

LP though are arguably worse, not only do they negatively affect your stability, but they will occasionally destroy an industry ignoring all defenses. This can range from slightly annoying, like disabling commerce, to downright crippling for a colony, like disabling spaceport or a battlestation before a major expedition or AI inspection arrives. Freely disabling your industries makes LP pretty dangerous and a definite priority.
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.9a] Progression Scope and how Colonies can be "Balanced"
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2019, 10:18:06 AM »

In addition to being able to disable industries, luddic path terrorist events can happen with enough frequency to stack up to well over a mere -4 stability; the highest I've seen it get is -6 worth of recent unrest (-7 total with the active cell penalty), because that was the point where I dropped everything else to go purge the sector of every pather battlestation they had built at the time.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.
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