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[Megas]

Anyway,  "progression" hasn't been "destroyed", unless your view of progressing is particularly narrow and limited to doing nothing but fleet bounty missions, one after the other, and nothing besides. Setting aside how boring that would become, I suppose you can think that, but the current game design doesn't support it.

Progression as in named bounties only as primary income, or at least one way.  That used to work in the pre-scaling days, although it was not always the best way to get income.  (In particular, food runs was the best way to make money and levels instead of combat in 0.65)

Grinding bounties only was not boring to me back in the day.  In early 0.8, that was all I did because I did not want to bother with trade (it broke, plus I just wanted to blast ships), surveying was mostly gated behind skills (aside from rare Terran planet, not anymore in 0.9), and system bounties had too few targets (stray pirates were harder to find in 0.8 than today).  You could still do contact missions (on probes and the like) with solo Dram, but that was not as fun as combat.

Current game design does not support smooth progression of named bounties, which is a real shame.  It used to, and it worked when it did, or at least it was a viable option to progress doing nothing but named bounty grinding, even if it was not always optimal.

Don't think I limit myself to named bounties only in 0.9.  I would not go very far if I did, or at least I would need to grind much more before I got anywhere.

[StarGibbon]

@ Megas

You can't cherry pick one part of a statement I made and pretend as if I didnt already address why you were mistaken about everything you said after.

The game *still* supports Bounties as primary income, in that you can still play the game and derive most of your income from running bounties. The game *doesn't* support relying on a single activity to the exclusion of any other for optimal progression. A player who doesn't want to engage in combat has trouble leveling up, and a player who never goes exploring will limit the quality of loot they find.  No mission type gets the perfect mission in every batch. Sometimes trade missions pop that a player has no hope of fulfilling. Some exploration missions are more worthwhile than others. So you do other things in the meantime, and there are plenty of activities or different bounty types that support combat.

This, on balance, is generally a good thing for the player experience. It encourages players to mix it up a bit to prevent burnout.

[Megas]

@ StarGibbon:  I did not comment on everything you posted because there is no point trying to address it all.  My last few posts would be much larger if I did, and I doubt anything would change.  I am sorry if it seems like cherry picking to you.  You think I am mistaken, I do not, but I will not write a multi-page thesis over it all, or rather, I already did to some extent in earlier posts.  Simply put, we do not agree.

The game *still* supports Bounties as primary income, in that you can still play the game and derive most of your income from running bounties.

In case of named bounties, only if player can deal with spiked up bounties.  For those that cannot, they hit a brick wall, and are forced to do other things, if available.  Maybe they do not want to be forced into other activities.  I sure got very annoyed with level scaling in late 0.8 (in much the same way I dislike dynamic or rubber-band difficulty in other games), and this is still true in 0.9 (in a different way).  I probably would have been forced to do solo probe missions with Dram (during late 0.8 ) and I would have hated it.

[StarGibbon]

The game *still* supports Bounties as primary income, in that you can still play the game and derive most of your income from running bounties.

In case of named bounties, only if player can deal with spiked up bounties.  

I reject this argument entirely, and it doesn't get any truer each time you repeat it. There will always be some bounty you can do. If no midrange fleet available, then pirate base. If Pirate base not yet feasible, you're probably not ready to move on from 50k bounties which dont, despite some claims to the contrary, disappear from the game within any amount of practical time I can determine. Do I need to screenshot the 50k bounties still appearing for me at year 214 when the game is basically over? If not those, then system bounty--not as profitable, but better EXP farming. If none of those then raid a domain sector for blueprints, which you will  need for your endgame fleets to do high level bounties anyway. Maybe not as much money without large cargo capacity, but great loot and still plenty of [Redacted] to kill.

You're not guaranteed a sweet spot mission of any type, in any given batch of missions.  But they turn over frequently, and there's always something else to do.

[intrinsic_parity]

There are definitely times I've noticed that there are currently no bounties that I can defeat. If I wait a couple months, maybe one will spawn, but if you are low on money, it is not an option to wait and hope that a doable bounty spawns. Weak pirate bases definitely are easier than the 150-200k bounties, but the pirate bases are not all weak and the difficulty can also scale with the number of defense fleets which seems RNG. The bounties of appropriate difficulty for mid-game do not spawn consistently enough, the hard bounties spawn much more consistently even in early game. I think Alex has said he is adjusting/toning this down so it is probably already solved, but it definitely is a problem currently.

I also don't like scaling in general and wish bounties of all difficulties were available most of the time.

[StarGibbon]

Alex said he was adjusting how soon the upper ended bounties *appear.*  I'm unaware of his plans beyond that.

If bounties are going to be guaranteed to be spoon-fed to a player every time at their comfort level though, I also want trade missions that are guaranteed to fit into my cargo space, and for goods I can profitably afford. Also exploration missions only for Stations, and not low profit opportunities like ship scans.   Basically, I never want to have to ever have to reach, or do any but one specific type of mission ever.

[Torch]

If someone wants to play as a bounty hunter, why can't they? Its a sandbox RPG, if someone wants to play it a specific way then they should be able to. Remember that the mainstream audience won't appreciate being forced away from the experience they prefer. Bounties that challenge the player but don't completely overpower them should always be available.

[intrinsic_parity]

It also costs a lot less money to buy a few freighters and play as a trade mule running trade missions than to buy a full late game combat fleet. Beating end game bounty fleets in mid game requires a total investment of skills/fleet and huge amount of money. Saying there should be attainable (not easy) bounties available without requiring the entire run to be based around maximizing combat doesn't seem unreasonable IMO.

The player should be thinking 'oh that fleet is too strong for me, I need 1-2 more cruisers to beat it' not 'oh I would need a capital and 4 cruisers to beat that and all I have is a drover and falcon...'. And yes this has happened to me, I had two falcons and ~10 assorted frigates/destroyers and all the available bounties had capital ships or multiple combat cruisers + a large fleet. I've player this game for years and I ran into this problem so I can only imagine an inexperienced players experience.

[StarGibbon]

It also costs a lot less money to buy a few freighters and play as a trade mule running trade missions than to buy a full late game combat fleet. Beating end game bounty fleets in mid game requires a total investment of skills/fleet and huge amount of money. Saying there should be attainable (not easy) bounties available without requiring the entire run to be based around maximizing combat doesn't seem unreasonable IMO.

The player should be thinking 'oh that fleet is too strong for me, I need 1-2 more cruisers to beat it' not 'oh I would need a capital and 4 cruisers to beat that and all I have is a drover and falcon...'. And yes this has happened to me, I had two falcons and ~10 assorted frigates/destroyers and all the available bounties had capital ships or multiple combat cruisers + a large fleet. I've player this game for years and I ran into this problem so I can only imagine an inexperienced players experience.

All right. I give up. This argument seems mostly reasonable to me, even though money is currently not a scarce commodity in the game and I still dont see the issue as highly significant to player progression, unless your expectations of activity focus in the game are unreasonably narrow.

I'm not sure if it's actually a scaling issue, or that there's simply a missing "tier" of bounty mission between 50k and the 100+k pirate base missions (which are still much easier than people make them out to be--if you can kill one Pirate Base, you're in the position to kill any of them, though you might actually have to accept some losses and use the reinforcements system, heaven forbid) that creates a gap that some players can fall into.  Maybe something with double the ships, and mostly destroyers for 75k. After that, you *really* should be able to move onto Pirate Bases as a stepping stone to more difficult fleet bounties, since apparently the idea of ever having to do absolutely *anything else* in the game is crazy.

[Thaago]

A quick question but... are people preparing for the bounties?

The intel tab tells you what ships they have or at least the major one, so its pretty easy to dock at a station and configure your own fleet to counter them: for example tuning your fighter/bomber mix, your HE/Kinetic ballistic ratio, and the range/speed tradeoff of unstable injectors on destroyers... or really whatever tricks you can think of.

Every once in a while they can still throw curveball, but in general you can tailor your fleet to smash through what would otherwise be superior enemies.

[StarGibbon]

A quick question but... are people preparing for the bounties?

The intel tab tells you what ships they have or at least the major one, so its pretty easy to dock at a station and configure your own fleet to counter them: for example tuning your fighter/bomber mix, your HE/Kinetic ballistic ratio, and the range/speed tradeoff of unstable injectors on destroyers... or really whatever tricks you can think of.

Every once in a while they can still throw curveball, but in general you can tailor your fleet to smash through what would otherwise be superior enemies.

But that would require a sober decision about mission selection, or having to adjust tactics or focus to occasionally reach a new plateau, or having to bite the bullet and use disposable sub-optimal ships that you can afford to lose. Why do that when it's so much easier just to have the game spoonfeed everything to you at your fleets comfort level.

[intrinsic_parity]

Weapon mixes don't let falcons beat onslaughts and paragons with a full supporting fleet. You need to be on a similar level in fleet size/capability before those things matter. And yes I tune my fleet to deal with stuff like lots of carriers or capitals.

No one is asking for easy fights. I repeat, no one is asking for easy fights.

I saw a fleet that was a paragon with 6 herons before I had a proper combat cruiser. That is not a winnable fight.

[StarGibbon]

I saw a fleet that was a paragon with 6 herons before I had a proper combat cruiser. That is not a winnable fight.

I saw a fleet that was full of cruisers when I only had a few frigates, and it chased me!  Luckily high level fleet bounties can be easily be evaluated for fleet challenge, and avoided entirely.

Alex already said he was changing how fast the hardest  missions would show up. The only real argument here is whether there are enough combat activities available in the game to give alternative combat opportunities when you get a batch that doesn't have one at your comfort level. I think there are, but whatever.

The income/exp stream from Bounties is still way too crazy. If it weren't for the currently even more broken income stream from colonies, everyone would be talking again about how easy it was to make money doing bounties. I think slowing down the rate at which you can turn them over is a good thing, so only having one or two "comfortable" bounties per batch, or requiring big ticket bounties to take more time (bases), or effort and losses (high level fleet bounties) is probably for the best.

[intrinsic_parity]

I saw a fleet that was full of cruisers when I only had a few frigates, and it chased me!  Luckily high level fleet bounties can be easily be evaluated for fleet challenge, and avoided entirely.

Nice strawman there...

I clearly wasn't claiming that I was forced to fight the bounty fleet. I was saying that fleet difficulty was completely inappropriate for my fleet level implying that the bounty scaling is not working correctly. I was also responding to the implication that I was playing poorly by not making adjustments with an example of what I considered to be an unacceptably difficulty bounty for a given fleet.

[Megas]

@ StarGibbon:  You lump base bounties (and maybe system bounties too) with named bounties.  I do not.  You think that named bounties progressing so fast and suddenly that they may be unbeatable for some is okay and not a problem because there are enough other things to do that player can ignore it, and smoothing the progression is spoon-feeding.  I think named bounties progressing too fast is a problem regardless of other ways of income and combat, and asking for progression to be smoother (like it used to be) is not spoon-feeding.  If anything, it gives player yet another way to progress beyond base busting, exploration, and maybe sponging off of a commission as a last resort (i.e., wait and do nothing in a single frigate until money accumulates).

Game does not offer enough lower bounties after when bounties spike.  Sub-150k bounties do not disappear entirely, but they are offered rarely enough that player cannot rely on them.

intrinsic_party explained my grievances with named bounties as they are, probably more succinctly than I did.

* * *

@ Thaago:  I prepare for named bounties if I can.  Sometimes, the bounty is beyond my level.  They outclass my fleet in every way, and I am unable to afford or acquire the upgrades I need to take them on.  If this was only one or two fleets, fine, that is expected of a sandbox environment.  After bounties spike, I have a hard time finding any bounty that my fleet can take on (at that point, I do exploration or base busting).  My fleet might be able to comfortably take on an 80k or 100k bounty, but all I see most of the time are 150k+ meatgrinders.  I may have a modest fleet of (D) mod frigates and destroyers, maybe Falcon and/or starter Apogee too, after killing two or three low bounties and completing few exploration missions.  Afterwards, the enemy in one of the many 150k meatgrinder bounties has that plus two or three cruisers, and possibly better weapons and fewer (D) mods.  Yes, I take combat skills (mostly in Leadership and Technology), but that only gives me a fighting chance in a very hard fight, not an easy time.