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[Megas]

Carriers and couple cruisers is no longer early-game, barring lucky recovery from recent battle or derelicts.  Spiked-up bounties can occur before player gets that far.

During my first game, busted-up frigates and destroyers (plus Falcons, maybe) were all I had, although some of the destroyers were carriers, because I really did build my first colony very early.  I got attacked by pirates early, before battlestation was operational (could not afford it at the time with my 175% hazard planet and no colony skills), although I managed to barely beat them.  (I built the battlestation by the time major factions got involved.)

In my third game, starter Apogee and Condor (plus another recovered) are my only cruiser and carriers.  Well, were.  A few moments ago, I just barely beat up a spiked-up Church fleet and snagged a Dominator, Mora, and more ships for my busted up frigate-and-destroyer plus Apogee fleet.  Before that fight, the named bounties were more than a match for my ragtag fleet of Apogee, two Condors, two Enforcers, four or five Mules, Wayfarer, and two Shepherds.  Pirate bases with only one section only required Apogee and two Condors if it was the only thing to fight.  If not, deploy whole fleet to get the riff-raff off my back.

Spiked-up bounties can occur while player is stuck with junky frigates and destroyers (aside from Apogee in that one start).

You probably can't take out a pirate base with busted up frigates and destroyers.

If it is a weak one-segment base, it is doable if you have enough.  If your flagship is mobile enough and the only enemy is the battlestation, it can exploit blind spots and pick off that lone section from the side.

Pirate bases are a mid game threat at worst--less for over achievers focusing on nothing but combat/fleet skills and gaining combat EXP, and I know for a fact a lot of you are better combat pilots than I am.

They can be strong with a full-power battlestation (I think they can have them occasionally) and possibly one or two huge fleet cap breakers full of beefy Colossus 3s and other junk.  Here, the main problem is lasting long enough if your firepower is not up to snuff.  Sure, they are not red system Remnants, but they can be nearly a match for major factions in their own way at their strongest.  That said, bases that strong do not appear early.  I see those well into endgame after I smash numerous bases.

* * *

Moving on, I noticed that bounties are almost all 150k-250k by cycle 207.  This happened even after I fought only two or three low bounties and did some exploration missions around the sector.  The time scaling seems much too fast.  Even many pirate bases are easier than the named bounties.

[StarGibbon]

Carriers and couple cruisers is no longer early-game, barring lucky recovery from recent battle or derelicts.  Spiked-up bounties can occur before player gets that far.

You can start with an apogee if you wish.  Condors are everywhere, drovers are purchasable, mora is obtainable with a bit of effort. RNG-sus might decide to drop a free Legion in your path for anyone who goes exploring. None of those ships will be engaging the base directly--it only matters how many fighter bays you can bring. I never said pirate bases were feasible early game, only that they were a mid game threat at most.

And the player can encounter *lots* of things in the game before they have the tools to defeat it. I don't know why we're so fixated on the bounty missions. It shows you which/how many ships you'll be facing---you can make an informed decision about those missions.

Pirate bases are a mid game threat at worst--less for over achievers focusing on nothing but combat/fleet skills and gaining combat EXP, and I know for a fact a lot of you are better combat pilots than I am.

They can be strong with a full-power battlestation (I think they can have them occasionally) and possibly one or two huge fleet cap breakers full of beefy Colossus 3s and other junk.  Here, the main problem is lasting long enough if your firepower is not up to snuff.  Sure, they are not red system Remnants, but they can be nearly a match for major factions in their own way at their strongest.  That said, bases that strong do not appear early.  I see those well into endgame after I smash numerous bases.

Yes, obviously fighting a base at the same time as several fleets is much more difficult. Must divide and conquer. My statements are only based on solo base--an achievable scenario with some effort.

Moving on, I noticed that bounties are almost all 150k-250k by cycle 207.  This happened even after I fought only two or three low bounties and did some exploration missions around the sector.  The time scaling seems much too fast. Even many pirate bases are easier than the named bounties.

This is what I've been *saying*.  Pirate bases *are* an intermediate step beneath the tougher fleet bounties.  I just popped one for 220k with a Dominator, a mora, and a couple condors--D-ships all and very few personal combat skills. Hardly an endgame fleet.  I know for a fact you're a more skilled player than I am, so if I can do this I believe you're overstating the issue.  

If you'll recall, I also mentioned to Alex that I thought Pirate Base missions were appearing earlier than a player could generally expect to beat them, and unlike fleet bounties, you can't judge the relative strength of the foe without trial and error. So on that point we agree.

[Megas]

I don't know why we're so fixated on the bounty missions.

Because that is the topic here, and because the difficulty unfairly spikes (from easy to very hard in nearly an instant, jump from 50k to 150k+ in one go), and that used to not be the case (was 50k, 80k, 100k, 120k, 150k, 200k, and so on) until scaling was added (leveling in late 0.8, now time).  I do not care if I can beat spiked up meat-grinding bounties with difficulty.  The spike is there, and it needs to be dealt with.  Not all players are hardcore maniacs that can deal with it.  This might not be a problem if weaker bounties stuck around and there was a mix of bounty levels, but they mostly disappear only after about nine to twelve in-game months since game start.

That base bounties pay more and are easier than spiked-up bounties is a balance problem too, in that why attack bounties that will tear my fleet apart while base may be a pushover?

Solo bases without all of the segments are relatively easy.  (High tech is a pain, harder to crack than low-tech or midline.)  Separation of forces is ideal, but not always an option (not unlike sneaking into a major faction's market).  You may be on a time crunch and cannot wait until everyone leaves.  Of course, player probably should not attack base if extra forces make the fight unbeatable.

Apogee as a starter is nice, but should not be expected.

P.S.  My last base bounty was 230k, and it was a simple midline orbital station with both sections, and I think a minor pirate patrol got sucked into the fight with it.  It was a cakewalk compared to some of the 150k bounties I attacked.  Named bounties worth 200k+ have capitals like Conquest or Onslaught XIV, and they have more and better ships than mine.  I think my fleet would wipe if I tried to fight them with inferior ships and weapons.  With a pirate base, depending on conditions, it can be easy money.

[TrashMan]

I'm chiefly interested in making sure that players investing in a certain play-style are rewarded for doing do, in ways that other specializations don't. If you think I'm arguing against the ability to play a combat-centric game, you haven't understood what I've said.  But then, this is common issue you and I seem to have, so if you don't mind I'm just going to skip straight to not engaging with you in this thread either, like I do in several others.

And having all kinds of bounties available at all times rewards all playstyles and has no balance/pacing issues.

[Xan]

I must say I haven't made the experience of early ame bounties ever fully disappearing, I still see 50k ish bounties every now and again that are mostly frigates in cycle 210-211. Sure, the average bounty has gone up (it does the same for procurement missions), no doubt about that, but I haven't noticed smaller ones just straight up not showing up.

That said, making a variety available at all times sounds good.

[Draba]

I'd rather have no scaling to player at all, and a world filled with more dynamic systems (bounties that aren't just stuff spawned for player to kill, for one).

And having all kinds of bounties available at all times rewards all playstyles and has no balance/pacing issues.

That'd be my preference, too.
My main gripe with current combat is that most frigates aren't useful beyond the earliest early game, especially in AI hands.
Maybe make the environment matter more, add noticeable special obstacles for fighting in magnetic field/ring system/whatever.

Even a small colony can be raided by pirates, and while not as powerful other threats, they can be big enough to require a relatively advanced near-endgame fleet (maybe less if you pumped up combat skills).

I feel like people are consistently overstating this. You probably can't take out a pirate base with busted up frigates and destroyers, but some carriers and a couple cruisers is hardly an "endgame fleet" by the game's current standards.

Yep, by the time you have enough resources to start a colony you can stomp pirates if you fight next to a level 1 station.
Hammerheads are everywhere and a few of them are all you need. Falcon/eagle/generic beaten up cruisers are also easy to get.

[StarGibbon]

I don't know why we're so fixated on the bounty missions.

Because that is the topic here,

So you're allowed to veer off topic, but no one else can? I've followed along with any of your many tangents. This doesn't seem sporting.
You said that bounties can appear before players have the tools to defeat them. I only asked how this is different from anything else in the game.  Avoiding things you can't deal with head on is a defining aspect of the early game.

 This might not be a problem if weaker bounties stuck around

They do.  Cycle 214 here, and 50k bounties still popping. I've maxed my character levels, have a set of invulnerable colonies handing me unlimited money every turn. Game is essentially over. If there ever comes a point where they actually do stop appearing (Ive never seen this happen--but I cant say it's impossible), it happens long past the expected duration of a current playthrough, by which time you really should have the material resources to deal with stronger bounties.

and there was a mix of bounty levels,

There are. Again, cycle 214, there are easy pirate bases, mid tier bounties easily complete-able in the 200-250k range, system bounties, in addition to all the other profitable activities that require combat as an ancillary activity. This point has been consistently overstated.

That base bounties pay more and are easier than spiked-up bounties is a balance problem too,

Not really. You said you wanted intermediate bounties, but reject them when I point out that there are? Picky picky.  Starbase destruction actives come in tiers too. Pirate bases are easy, LP bases are probably mid tier on that scale, and [Redacted] bases are hard. And as you point out elsewhere, Starbases come with their own unique challenges, so you generally can't turn them around as quickly as a mid tier fleet bounty. Tradeoffs.

Solo bases without all of the segments are relatively easy.  

So you keep saying. I dont find any functional difference in difficulty defeating a developed pirate base--once you have the tools, the battle just takes longer.  And I'm quite certain you've forgotten more about playing this game than I'll ever know.

Apogee as a starter is nice, but should not be expected.

I don't. Just pointing out that early game cruisers are only scarce if you choose to make them so.

P.S.  My last base bounty was 230k, and it was a simple midline orbital station with both sections, and I think a minor pirate patrol got sucked into the fight with it.  It was a cakewalk compared to some of the 150k bounties I attacked.  Named bounties worth 200k+ have capitals like Conquest or Onslaught XIV, and they have more and better ships than mine.  I think my fleet would wipe if I tried to fight them with inferior ships and weapons.  With a pirate base, depending on conditions, it can be easy money.

Again, obviously bases are tougher to fight if you choose to fight them at the same time as defending fleets. Peeling away defenders is part of the challenge, and those defenders serve as a screen for underleveled players. If you cant make it past the defensive fleets, then you cant take on the starbase.  By the time a player has moved beyond 50k bounties, they really should be finding pirate fleets trivial, though.


***
I hope you understand, I'm not trying to frustrate you Megas. I'm simply challenging your assertions a bit where I think the issue is being overstated.  I think it's in the games interest to have activities that you have to work up to, exert effort, and make difficult choices in order to overcome. I'm not troubled by the existence of very difficult missions that the player can see but cant win. I would be if I thought that your assertion about there not being any alternatives to these missions was true, but I don't think that it is.

If you'd like to let this go now and move on, I will happily oblige.

[StarGibbon]

My main gripe with current combat is that most frigates aren't useful beyond the earliest early game, especially in AI hands.

I find frigates very useful even in the late, but their role becomes more niche. They are very useful deployed as a "second wave" via the reinforcements system after your larger ships have dealt with the biggest threats, and all thats left are the annoying smaller ships that have made it through your lines, and can be elusive to larger ships. Trying to chase down frigates with cruisers will burn a lot of CR.

Obviously they are also very useful in "pursuit" engagements, since they can be deployed ahead of the fleeing ships to the right and left.

Certain more durable frigate types also make decent escorts for light carriers that will be well behind the lines.

[Draba]

I find frigates very useful even in the late, but their role becomes more niche. They are very useful deployed as a "second wave" via the reinforcements system after your larger ships have dealt with the biggest threats, and all thats left are the annoying smaller ships that have made it through your lines, and can be elusive to larger ships. Trying to chase down frigates with cruisers will burn a lot of CR.

Obviously they are also very useful in "pursuit" engagements, since they can be deployed ahead of the fleeing ships to the right and left.

Certain more durable frigate types also make decent escorts for light carriers that will be well behind the lines.

My problems with frigates:
- not enough officers, DP without them is throwing away power
- they die too easily, can't just give them to the AI and expect no losses in big battles

Rest boils down to the base game not having any challenges for a maxed player with cruisers/capitals.
It's possible I'm overlooking something and adding some frigates would be slightly more powerful/efficient but it's not needed anywhere.
With that in mind:
- First deployment wins so reinforcements are pointless
- Elusive things are swarmed by fighters or outranged by bigger ships(phase ships tick down fast enough)
- Late pursuit is pointless(redacted doesn't run, no bounty, civ ships have nothing I want). If you really want to chase bring harbinger.

In general I'd maybe use monitor(duh) or maybe tempest(2 mediums+HEF+drones+fast) in a combat fleet.
For speed-related purposes aurora/falcon/odyssey(also has fighters) are enough.

[Torch]

If you put an officer on a good escort frigate and consider the escort as a mobile weapons platform, you can basically add extra weapons to your flagship. Put a high focus on survivability for the escorts, especially shields. The lack of a need for any mobility-based hullmods to the escort frigates lets you put more OP into defense and firepower. This is my favorite use for frigates, because I can add more point defense and range to cover my SO Enforcer's weaknesses.

[StarGibbon]

My problems with frigates:
- not enough officers, DP without them is throwing away power
- they die too easily, can't just give them to the AI and expect no losses in big battles

Rest boils down to the base game not having any challenges for a maxed player with cruisers/capitals.
It's possible I'm overlooking something and adding some frigates would be slightly more powerful/efficient but it's not needed anywhere.
With that in mind:
- First deployment wins so reinforcements are pointless
- Elusive things are swarmed by fighters or outranged by bigger ships(phase ships tick down fast enough)
- Late pursuit is pointless(redacted doesn't run, no bounty, civ ships have nothing I want). If you really want to chase bring harbinger.

Some counter points.

 First deployment *wins* the battle, sure (although not as clear cut a case with D-fleets that often rely on being able to cheaply deploy reinforcements) but they arent needed for mop up, and CR becomes important if you're fighting a series of battles in close succession against a number or large fleets, like you might have to do when clearing defenders away from a starbase, or clearing a medium or higher domain system of [Redacted] threats. Popular player ships tend to be CR-deprived as well. An Aurora even with hardened subsystems hemorrhages CR every second it's on the field, and it would be much more useful to spend that CR against critical threats in the next engagement than chasing down frigates.

I find an AI-driven D-wolf pack to be perfectly competent at chasing down annoying frigates and destroyers that have penetrated your lines, as long as the bigger ships have removed the worst threats to Frigate health.  Because they're D ships, I also dont have to care if they die, but they seldom do if deployed strategically, rather than at the start of a battle where they would be expected to absorb punishment from much stronger opposition.

Sometimes you have to pursue fleets, even with a larger one. Starbase defenders are also a good example of this because they will run from your fleet, then swoop back to complicate matters when trying to deal with a starbase. Likewise, sometimes the target of a bounty escapes with enough ships to prevent the bounty from being completed, and you must engage in a pursuit battle. Frigates are very useful for pursuit.

Also, those LP brawlers that are easily captured make a fairly durable, cheaply deploy-able escort for light carriers that will be behind the lines and only really need to fear those elusive small ships that make it past your larger ones.  Monitor would be better sure, but also more difficult to deploy when DP are scarce.


Anyway, these are just things i find that work for me. Frigates aren't pointless, they just become specialty ships.

[Draba]

Some counter points.

First deployment *wins* the battle, sure (although not as clear cut a case with D-fleets that often rely on being able to cheaply deploy reinforcements) but they arent needed for mop up, and CR becomes important if you're fighting a series of battles in close succession against a number or large fleets, like you might have to do when clearing defenders away from a starbase, or clearing a medium or higher domain system of [Redacted] threats. Popular player ships tend to be CR-deprived as well. An Aurora even with hardened subsystems hemorrhages CR every second it's on the field, and it would be much more useful to spend that CR against critical threats in the next engagement than chasing down frigates.

I find an AI-driven D-wolf pack to be perfectly competent at chasing down annoying frigates and destroyers that have penetrated your lines, as long as the bigger ships have removed the worst threats to Frigate health.  Because they're D ships, I also dont have to care if they die, but they seldom do if deployed strategically, rather than at the start of a battle where they would be expected to absorb punishment from much stronger opposition.

Sometimes you have to pursue fleets, even with a larger one. Starbase defenders are also a good example of this because they will run from your fleet, then swoop back to complicate matters when trying to deal with a starbase. Likewise, sometimes the target of a bounty escapes with enough ships to prevent the bounty from being completed, and you must engage in a pursuit battle. Frigates are very useful for pursuit.

Also, those LP brawlers that are easily captured make a fairly durable, cheaply deploy-able escort for light carriers that will be behind the lines and only really need to fear those elusive small ships that make it past your larger ones.  Monitor would be better sure, but also more difficult to deploy when DP are scarce.


Anyway, these are just things i find that work for me. Frigates aren't pointless, they just become specialty ships.

Mostly comes down to taste, just 1 nitpick: non-phase cruisers/capitals do not tick down every second.
Only time I seen Aurora/Apogee/Falcon/Eagle reach peak time(outside of corona) was attacking the middle of pirate doomstacks you find in hyperspace around some systems.
Dunno what fleet size most people play at, pumped it up to max for this version to see how that looks. That might be the source of lots of the different experiences.

If you put an officer on a good escort frigate and consider the escort as a mobile weapons platform, you can basically add extra weapons to your flagship. Put a high focus on survivability for the escorts, especially shields. The lack of a need for any mobility-based hullmods to the escort frigates lets you put more OP into defense and firepower. This is my favorite use for frigates, because I can add more point defense and range to cover my SO Enforcer's weaknesses.

If you put the same officer in Aurora it's a durable weapons platform that cruises around at ~150 and reaches ~275 when needed
Use SO if you want more.

[StarGibbon]

Dunno what fleet size most people play at, pumped it up to max for this version to see how that looks. That might be the source of lots of the different experiences.

Indeed. I play at Vanilla settings on Normal. I imagine being able to deploy many more ships at once, which means many more cruisers and capitals at once, would have a significant effect on battle difficulty and flow.  Having more big ships at your command at once amplifies player advantage of being able to make superior tactical and target selection decisions.

Only time I seen Aurora/Apogee/Falcon/Eagle reach peak time(outside of corona) was attacking the middle of pirate doomstacks you find in hyperspace around some systems.

 Again, I specified examples in which you must fight multiple engagements in quick succession. During a single battle, no--though players skills will affect this greatly. Someone with a lot of personal combat skills will kill ships faster obviously, requiring less time on field. But this is not the only way to play the game.  MY SO Sunders and Auroras burn through CR very quickly, even with hardened subsystems.

[Megas]

I don't know why we're so fixated on the bounty missions.

Because that is the topic here,

So you're allowed to veer off topic, but no one else can? I've followed along with any of your many tangents. This doesn't seem sporting.
You said that bounties can appear before players have the tools to defeat them. I only asked how this is different from anything else in the game.  Avoiding things you can't deal with head on is a defining aspect of the early game.

Nothing to do with off-topic or not.  Just that if I "fixate" (as you call it) on bounties here, it is because this is the topic for it, because it says "Bounty spike?"  I could post another new one or hijack another, but why?

I have no problem with unbeatable bounties.  I have a problem that the progression was destroyed when scaling was added, and all of the weaker bounties mostly disappear (a few low ones may pop up here and there, but there are few and far between), and unbeatable bounties are mostly what the player can get if he is unprepared.  Player goes off the deep end from easy to very hard too fast.  As I wrote before, that did not happen in versions without scaling.  0.9 changed the scaling but they can still progress too fast.  I want the bounties to scale more gradually like they used to, or at least not skip from 50k to 150k, then from 150k to 250k suddenly and only after a relatively short amount of time.

I am not including bases for purposes of named bounty spikes.  (I do fight bases, and they are often, but not always due to high variance, easier than named bounties worth less while I still have frigates and destroyers.)  I just want the more gradual progression of bounties that used to be in older Starsector releases restored, or at least have the lower bounties much more common if we have tough named bounties mixed in like a good sandbox.  That would certainly fix the bounty spike problem.  When I wrote I wanted intermediate bounties, I meant named bounties, not bases.  Bases are a different animal, and a separate side progression apart from named bounties.

Solo bases without all of the segments are relatively easy.  

So you keep saying. I dont find any functional difference in difficulty defeating a developed pirate base--once you have the tools, the battle just takes longer.  And I'm quite certain you've forgotten more about playing this game than I'll ever know.

For solo bases with only one segment, if I have a fast enough warship bigger than a frigate, there are blind spots that can let me attack the base without getting shot back (aside from missiles or fighters).  Or I can deploy one or two tough warships and few carriers to pound on it.

A base with all segments does not really have blind spots (except maybe midline), and barring stuff like Reaper phase ships (which I probably do not have early in the game), I need to deploy significantly more ships since I cannot cheese the fight, just more beef and firepower.

There is a difference in difficulty when I still have a fleet of common frigates and destroyer clunkers early in the game.  With an endgame fleet, the difficulty of either is not significant.  If I have Reaper Harbinger then yes, it can solo it by itself.

By the time a player has moved beyond 50k bounties, they really should be finding pirate fleets trivial, though.

Typical mid-size fleets, I can buy that.  Huge (and possibly fleet cap breaker) armada with lots of beefy Colossus 3's, Ventures, and Enforcers like a Pather fleet, and I have mostly frigates and destroyers like theirs, I do not think so, if only because at the very least, that is a lot of meat to chew through and peak performance might be a problem even if I do not take casualties.

Player could be beyond 50k, but maybe not 80k or 100k.

[StarGibbon]

Because that is the topic here,

Nothing to do with off-topic or not.  

This hurt my head a bit.


Anyway,  "progression" hasn't been "destroyed", unless your view of progressing is particularly narrow and limited to doing nothing but fleet bounty missions, one after the other, and nothing besides. Setting aside how boring that would become, I suppose you can think that, but the current game design doesn't support it. A player can specialize in one area of activity or another, but the game still requires a mix of activities to progress in practical fashion. A player choosing to avoid combat entirely will almost never level up, and you still need to engage in "exploration" activities if you want to find the best loot and blueprints at a reliable rate.

  A combat-focused playstyle is supported by many different activities in the game, and there's never any guarantee the exact type of mission you want will pop up in any batch of missions, trade, bounty, exploration or otherwise. Scanning Domain stations are my preferred type of exploration mission because the associated rewards are much better, but those don't pop every single time, so I do other things in the meantime. I don't see why bounties should spoonfeed the perfect "not to hot not to cold" mission to a player in every batch, when no other type of mission does.

Aside from that, we appear to be experiencing the game in significantly different ways, which is perplexing to me me, because I don't think a player of your experience and skill should be having trouble with things that I find easy.  But since there's no real way to explore the variables that might be involved, there doesn't seem to be any point in going in circles over it.  I'm happy to move on if you are, though I'm still going to challenge you if I think you're making an overstatement.

Thanks for the discussion!