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Author Topic: Bring frigates back to the late game.  (Read 26746 times)

Megas

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #90 on: November 05, 2018, 01:17:07 PM »

Player kiting indefinitely is not as problematic as the AI doing likewise against the player.  Today, phase frigates can be untouchable until their CR times out.
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Blaine

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #91 on: November 05, 2018, 01:39:54 PM »

Player kiting indefinitely is not as problematic as the AI doing likewise against the player.  Today, phase frigates can be untouchable until their CR times out.

I've yet to encounter these scenarios, but to be fair, I was new to (the current version of) the game and was only properly able to notice more of the subtleties after I began getting used to everything basic and major, by which time my fleet was on the larger side.

In my late game (now abandoned for full-blown mod mode), untouchable frigates just ended up retreating after I'd blown up 90% of their fleet, so I don't see why that's problematic. Yes, if there are phase ships present, they'll often be among the ships beating a retreat. I don't consider it a problem for them to escape, though, aside from the slight disappointment of less salvage and maybe not being able to retrieve a disabled rare frigate.
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Alex

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #92 on: November 05, 2018, 01:42:19 PM »

It's not necessary (and rarely desirable) to try to cork every possible way for a very experienced player to exploit the game—at least not a single-player, offline game. Advanced frigate kiting is only an issue for someone who knows the game backwards and forwards. Balancing the game around experts can harm the rest of it for people who are not experts, and I doubt I'm the first precocious newcomer to say so.

I've had the issue with no-CR frigates explained to me several times, yet in each case it's mentioned that it takes a long time to do. That's nearly the whole point of frigate-grade CR: It doesn't last as long as the amount of time required to pull off these min-maxed frigate kiting scenarios. I'd consider it far more optimal to finish the battle much faster with a normal fleet, not only in terms of less testing of my patience, but even in terms of use of resources and earning potential. If I can complete twice the bounties with a large fleet in the same amount of time, then tedious frigate kiting is in no way optimal.

Even if I concede that frigate kiting, if possible, is the optimal strategy from at least one point of view, why do it if it sucks the fun out of the game? I still use some ships that I consider to be sub-optimal, both for fun and to indirectly add a bit more challenge.

(Suggested reading.

And a quick example that would likely affect even a player that's not particularly into minimaxing - let's say you're in trouble and the only way to win and avoid a fleet wipe is to use this tactic. It'll take you an hour, it's not particularly fun, and it's not particularly difficult; it mainly requires patience. A lot of people would feel forced to do it, even if they didn't want to to begin with. And this sort of thing will creep in all over the place; if the design makes it optimal, successful strategies will naturally lean in that direction.)
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Megas

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #93 on: November 05, 2018, 01:53:38 PM »

If the enemy ship retreats, fine.  What I meant are those ships that constantly hover beyond your shot range (or can consistently withdraw from the fight after you put some hard flux on their shield), but will not retreat (but will gladly run down the CR clock for a mutual stalemate).  Phase ships are an obvious example, but not the only one.  There is a reason why enemy fleets are not allowed to have Timid officers.

Frigates are more of a problem earlier in the game when player does not have overwhelming offense.

And a quick example that would likely affect even a player that's not particularly into minimaxing - let's say you're in trouble and the only way to win and avoid a fleet wipe is to use this tactic. It'll take you an hour, it's not particularly fun, and it's not particularly difficult; it mainly requires patience. A lot of people would feel forced to do it, even if they didn't want to to begin with. And this sort of thing will creep in all over the place; if the design makes it optimal, successful strategies will naturally lean in that direction.)
In Starsector's case when enemy had Timid officers, I sat and wait on the objective with my battleship until they, the ships with Timid officers, ran out of CR first, instead of me deploying more ships to 1) not add more deployment costs and 2) allow AI to deploy more ships to counter my reinforcements.

In fighting games, if I pick a high-tier character with a game-breaker move, I might play around with more fun and flashy moves, but if I start losing, out comes the game-breaker spam, and I win.
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Blaine

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #94 on: November 06, 2018, 02:33:35 AM »

(Suggested reading.

That was a very nice read. If I may, the summary echoes my own sentiment:

It's not necessary (and rarely desirable) to try to cork every possible way for a very experienced player to exploit the game—at least not a single-player, offline game.

Quote from: Soren Johnson
However, designers can go too far by trying to remove all exploits from a game. Often, the right choice depends upon the game’s context. Does the exploit drown out all other play styles, or is it a fun, alternative way to play? Does the degenerate strategy create an endless grind, or is it a quick shortcut for players who need a little help? ... If possible, designers should provide the ability to turn an exploit on or off, giving the players control over their worst instincts.

I'm in no way attempting to cherry-pick just this one statement, only pointing out that it's included. In Starsector, the CR mechanics are not optional and are insinuated into every aspect of gameplay, especially the skill system.

And a quick example that would likely affect even a player that's not particularly into minimaxing - let's say you're in trouble and the only way to win and avoid a fleet wipe is to use this tactic. It'll take you an hour, it's not particularly fun, and it's not particularly difficult; it mainly requires patience. A lot of people would feel forced to do it, even if they didn't want to to begin with. And this sort of thing will creep in all over the place; if the design makes it optimal, successful strategies will naturally lean in that direction.)

Your chosen solution has been to cause a warship to break down after four to six minutes in combat, give or take. I find it to be a very artificial solution. Although realism arguments with regard to computer games are often used to support someone's opinion or preferences and not out of any true desire to see more (or less) realism in the game being discussed, nevertheless, I can genuinely say I've found this silly from the moment I started playing Starsector 0.8.1a. I don't remember what I thought about previous versions in years past, as it's been too long.

I hear you, and respect your opinion, but you're also the developer of the game. You're very close to your own project, which is something that's worth keeping in mind. Even the article you linked mentions that a developer may not truly understand his own game until it's released in the wild, and the Starsector boards... well, the board regulars are clearly a very dedicated group of fans. I myself am a space, strategy, and simulation freak, and have been since I first played Wing Commander in 1990. This bunch of folks isn't representative of the general public, although that being said, I certainly wouldn't advocate developing the game for the least common denominator of player, either.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 02:40:03 AM by Blaine »
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TaLaR

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #95 on: November 06, 2018, 03:08:13 AM »

Your chosen solution has been to cause a warship to break down after four to six minutes in combat, give or take. I find it to be a very artificial solution. Although realism arguments with regard to computer games are often used to support someone's opinion or preferences and not out of any true desire to see more (or less) realism in the game being discussed, nevertheless, I can genuinely say I've found this silly from the moment I started playing Starsector 0.8.1a. I don't remember what I thought about previous versions in years past, as it's been too long.

This part I can agree with. I think 0 CR could be less severe than death by spontaneous explosions http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13712.0 .
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Alex

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #96 on: November 06, 2018, 08:57:44 AM »

That was a very nice read. If I may, the summary echoes my own sentiment:

It's not necessary (and rarely desirable) to try to cork every possible way for a very experienced player to exploit the game—at least not a single-player, offline game.

Quote from: Soren Johnson
However, designers can go too far by trying to remove all exploits from a game. Often, the right choice depends upon the game’s context. Does the exploit drown out all other play styles, or is it a fun, alternative way to play? Does the degenerate strategy create an endless grind, or is it a quick shortcut for players who need a little help? ... If possible, designers should provide the ability to turn an exploit on or off, giving the players control over their worst instincts.

I'm in no way attempting to cherry-pick just this one statement, only pointing out that it's included. In Starsector, the CR mechanics are not optional and are insinuated into every aspect of gameplay, especially the skill system.

The thing is, "infinite kiting" is a prime example of an exploit that "drowns out other ways to play" and "creates an endless grind". I'll also note that peak time/CR degradation was not in place at first, and was added as a result of it - in practice - being a boring and dominant way to play. I hear what you're saying re: being close to the project and so on; however this is definitely a change that was driven by player feedback regarding what was actually happening in the game.

Basically, that paragraph/section is a "don't take this as an absolute" kind of thing; less "summary" and more "disclaimer". The mechanic we're talking about here - infinite kiting - is exactly the sort of thing the rest of the article is about.


Your chosen solution has been to cause a warship to break down after four to six minutes in combat, give or take. I find it to be a very artificial solution. Although realism arguments with regard to computer games are often used to support someone's opinion or preferences and not out of any true desire to see more (or less) realism in the game being discussed, nevertheless, I can genuinely say I've found this silly from the moment I started playing Starsector 0.8.1a. I don't remember what I thought about previous versions in years past, as it's been too long.

(Edit: that's just an entirely different conversation to whether infinite kiting is a problem.)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 09:04:59 AM by Alex »
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Blaine

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #97 on: November 06, 2018, 10:58:09 AM »

I hear what you're saying re: being close to the project and so on; however this is definitely a change that was driven by player feedback regarding what was actually happening in the game.

Yes, but for the most part that feedback has come from a very small group of players who've played the game for hundreds or even thousands of hours. I've played the game three times: once in 2014, again in 2016, and now once more in 2018. Each time, I played until I had a giant fleet, and at no stage of any of those playthroughs did I engage in frigate kiting, think about frigate kiting, or feel forced to frigate kite. Did I miss a short window of compulsory frigate kiting?

Just as a bit of proof that I'm not blowing smoke here:

Spoiler
[close]

Basically, that paragraph/section is a "don't take this as an absolute" kind of thing; less "summary" and more "disclaimer". The mechanic we're talking about here - infinite kiting - is exactly the sort of thing the rest of the article is about.

I disagree. I think that saddling the entire frigate class (and to a lesser extent, the destroyer class) with a sweeping universal disadvantage that doesn't practically affect cruisers or capitals except possibly in the most absurd and/or terminally end-game situations (fighting multiple large fleets back-to-back, battlestation fights) in order to address a single exploit—namely the possibility of a handful of frigate loadout combinations and strategies devised by veterans to efficiently kite—is just exactly what that disclaimer is talking about.

Yeah, okay, even a newcomer may be faced with a situation where the only way to win is to kite, but he could retreat, or (much more likely) just reload the game. In the simulator, I've tested some destroyer vs. destroyer loadouts and become bored to tears because neither of us could finish the other off. The AI's excellence at smugly and near-perfectly micromanaging its flux and shields can create those situations. It was just kiting and backpedaling for a good 4-5 minutes. CR or no CR, I'm leaving that battle one way or the other, and it's not going to be by kiting back and forth for an hour until I finally win, in the simulator or the campaign.

Of course, Starsector isn't the only game to see sweeping changes to its fundamental game mechanics in order to prevent kiting. Kiting is so well known as a concept that we all already know what it is, and need no introduction. Balancing around kiting prevention is not a philosophy I approve of in general, but at the same time, I acknowledge that it's a complicated issue with no easy answer. As someone who's never felt compelled to identify the most optimal and efficient strategy and then use it to the exclusion of all others, I realize that I'm an odd bird, and I have difficulty seeing things from that point of view. That doesn't mean I wallow in inefficiency on purpose, but at the same time, I don't obsess with identifying every little weakness and exploitable mechanic and then ruthlessly abusing them to the utmost.

Look, I knew before delving into this conversation that it was a losing battle. CR is here to stay, whether I like it or not. The game's moddable, though, so I suppose people who really dislike CR could make a mod that multiplies everything's peak performance by 10. The funny thing is, I had almost entirely stopped using frigates and destroyers without even thinking about what I was doing, and not even because of CR. They were simply obsolete. The fact that they beep at me and start to fall apart during extended battles (this was rare until the endgame) just adds insult to injury, and that's the point of this thread. Without this thread, I never would have thought twice about it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 11:02:21 AM by Blaine »
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #98 on: November 06, 2018, 11:37:13 AM »

I really don't see the issue of frigates becoming obsolete (or just less useful) in the late game. Is it because of a preference for faster ships? There are some fast destroyers in the game, even more if you mod it.
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Grievous69

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #99 on: November 06, 2018, 11:53:41 AM »

Me neither... It's prectically impossible to balance the game so that every aspect that comes into gameplay is viable at every stage of the game, be it ships, weapons or something else. As shown by these 7 pages, everyone has their playstyle, it's hard to please new players and hard core players at the same time while not making the game unfun. If I were Alex, I'd just ignore the random ramblings and balance the game the way I feel is right, except when 99% of the playerbase is yelling at you but even that is just a number on forums. I've seen examples when vocal minority wanted something so bad, then the game got even worse in terms of balance.

Anyways I truly appreciate Alex chiming into every other thread and saying his opinions, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying if I were him I'd go slightly insane from reading so much arguments then questioning my own decisions.
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Please don't take me too seriously.

Alex

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #100 on: November 06, 2018, 12:04:07 PM »

I was just trying to convey why approaching design from a "don't fix exploits, the players will do what's fun anyway" standpoint (which you approximately expressed a few posts back) is not a good idea, on a conceptual level. Infinite kiting/peak time is just a handy example (though as you say, you disagree).

As far as peak time - look at it from another perspective, perhaps - peak time allows a bunch of fun things to exist that would otherwise not exist. Safety Overrides, player-piloted phase ships, the Hyperion, and, ironically, frigates that are more powerful than they would likely otherwise be. To varying degrees, all of these things would be game-breaking otherwise.
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FooF

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #101 on: November 06, 2018, 03:12:20 PM »

CR is here to stay and I'm fine with that. It's arbitrary, sure, but it's part of gameplay landscape at this point and as Alex said, you can balance around it. It's not like there aren't ways of increasing peak time or ways of decreasing the drain of CR once you go over it. Hardened Subsystems exists if you want them to last longer.

I'll relate this to one of my favorite games of all time: The Freespace franchise (namely the sequel). In the early game, a Cruiser (akin to a Frigate in SS) had some nasty anti-fighter weaponry and occasionally a heavy beam weapon that could put the hurt on bigger things. You avoided them unless you were in a bomber or had your own Cruiser to deal with them. However, once Corvettes (Cruisers) and Destroyers (Capitals) started hitting the field, those Cruisers weren't worth much. They were too fragile and didn't have enough firepower to compete. Then the Juggernauts came in (Super-Capitals) and the Cruisers would last seconds. It's just the scale of the game. You just didn't deploy Cruisers against Juggernauts and expect to win no matter how many you deployed or how much faster a Cruiser was than a Juggernaut.

SS is much more arcade-y than Freespace (which was a sim) but the same rationale follows. Frigates have their place but not against Capitals except as annoyances and opportunists. They don't need to be relevant unless, again, there's some kind of mechanic that makes fast/maneuverable ships valuable to some greater tactical goal.

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Schwartz

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2018, 05:26:05 PM »

The thing is, "infinite kiting" is a prime example of an exploit that "drowns out other ways to play" and "creates an endless grind". I'll also note that peak time/CR degradation was not in place at first, and was added as a result of it - in practice - being a boring and dominant way to play. I hear what you're saying re: being close to the project and so on; however this is definitely a change that was driven by player feedback regarding what was actually happening in the game.
I find this very strange. Did a lot of players actually do this pre 0.65? Because the thought of soloing and kiting puts me to sleep. Hell, reward it, and I'm still not gonna do it. I get where that game theory article wanted to go in regards to unfun but successful tactics, but at the same time I think it's drinking its own kool-aid a little too much. Not every player falls into their own un-fun trap. Not every mechanic that fits the theme is exploited at large. It depends a lot on the game and what else there is to play around with.

We do see kiting and similar tactics still in the game. Peekaboo games happen a lot with frigates, especially early on. It's tedious, but everybody should play to their advantage (The AI actually does this more than me!). We see this still with phase ships, where in the worst case scenario you don't even get to interact with the Afflictor beyond some maneuvering to try and usher the thing to move in a certain direction. Once CR dries up, you can one-shot it. Do I want phase ships gone? Hell no. I think phase is still a mechanic looking for an elegant solution.

Like I said earlier, I don't think frigates have a problem. They are viable late-game, they just can't slug it out or wait it out. And they shouldn't be able to. One issue I see is that the officer limit makes 10 combat ships ideal. 10 combat ships resembles a capital-cruiser-destroyer fleet, more or less. What if we gave fleets the ability to gather frigates into squadrons of 2 or 3? One ship gets the officer and the buffs, the other(s) assume the officer's temperament and a percentage of the buffs? They could even work as functional teams in combat.
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Cik

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2018, 05:38:33 PM »

frigate squadrons seems to be the popular suggestion. i don't think there is anything wrong with it.

just making objectives actually matter would do a pretty decent job of making them at least worth deploying, even if they continue to have no tactical maneuverability and/or standoff worth considering.
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Megas

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Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2018, 06:20:38 PM »

If infinite kiting works best, I do not hesitate to use it.  That is what I did with Medusa in early 0.6.  It had unlimited PPT, and combined with hull regeneration from old Damage Control 10, it was mostly indestructible.  It was degenerate and stale, yet... fun, because I like controlling an overpowered godship that can obliterate the enemy unfairly.

In one 0.7.x release, when enemy had Timid officers, I solo'ed whole fleets, and the AI did not over-deploy if I only deploy one ship.  If I encountered Timid enemy, stalling until it ran out of CR was optimal.  If I deployed reinforcements, then I pay more deployment costs and the enemy deploys more ships that might overwhelm the flagship and/or pick off my reinforcements.  Deploying just because I have no patience and could not wait another ten to thirty minutes before Timid enemies self-destructed was stupid.

P.S.  When Salamanders became unlimited, and Fast Missile Racks was still unlimited, I spammed infinite Salamanders from Venture or Doom with glee, and the missiles killed everyone beyond fog-of-war.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 06:25:18 PM by Megas »
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