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Author Topic: Auto-Retreat  (Read 4153 times)

SafariJohn

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Auto-Retreat
« on: October 15, 2018, 10:30:58 AM »

It can be very difficult to tell whether you outmatch a foe or not. What's worse, a little one way - the enemy gets wiped out, a little the other - you get wiped. Getting wiped is a waste of time, and wasting the player's time is a big problem.

Some previous suggestions to prevent every loss being a wipeout relied on disabled ships escaping somehow, but that has problems. Instead, I suggest interceding earlier. Ships should retreat automatically, i.e. rout, when they run out of peak performance time or lose half of their starting hull.

That's a little harsh, even if it works both ways, so officers should provide resistance to this. When a normal ship would rout, a steady officer "wavers", which is just a warning to the player. A steady officer routs only once their ship is at serious risk of malfunction (and out of PPT) or has lost 90% of its hull. Reckless and aggressive officers are more resistant and in fact never rout from hull damage, while cautious and timid officers are less resistant.

This idea isn't intended to totally prevent player fleet wipes, but it should make them the exception. Thus saving us a lot of time and trouble.
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Megas

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Re: Auto-Retreat
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2018, 11:39:29 AM »

I would like auto-retreat most when peak performance expires so that 1) enemy AI does not overplay its favorite stalling games and 2) so I do not bring up the map once every few seconds and bleed CP when my small ships stagger their whining about peak performance/CR decay in quick succession.
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Gothars

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Re: Auto-Retreat
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2018, 01:01:12 PM »

If it would be triggered by hull damage, routing would often be contra-productive. Hull damage is not a good indicator of remaining combat value. A high tech ship with good shields only needs one slip up to get to low hull, while still remaining almost as dangerous as before. So routing, instead of softening your loss, might facilitate it.


Besides, I fundamentally disagree that "being wiped is a waste of player time". That only applies if you consider reloading after a wipe mandatory. I think the high stakes of combat are essential for its intensity, and rebuilding after a wipe is an educational and interesting part of the game.
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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.

SCC

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Re: Auto-Retreat
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2018, 02:21:16 PM »

I in general would like to set ship behaviour in regards to common situation before hand, like a briefing, without retorting to wasting my command points to save my ships. This is the main reason I get Autonomous Ships mod for, in addition to changing officerless ships' personality.

Megas

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Re: Auto-Retreat
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2018, 03:27:35 PM »

I in general would like to set ship behaviour in regards to common situation before hand, like a briefing
This!  Pre-battle plans or football plays.  Set up general behavior before play and use CPs to call an audible (ideally stuff like... everyone kill this priority target of opportunity now or... you there with 25% hull left, don't be a hero, get out!), not spend it all constructing the same routine play of capturing the same two or three endgame objectives (if they were still relevant).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 03:29:44 PM by Megas »
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Cik

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Re: Auto-Retreat
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2018, 03:52:05 PM »

a squadron hierarchy structure would be ideal.

instead of the fleet being flat it is

Flagship (Capital)

Cruiser detachment (set to escort flagship)

cruiser detachment (set to seek and destroy type behavior)

destroyer squadron (set to escort cruiser squadron #2)

destroyer squadron (set to search & destroy type behavior)

frigate detachment (2-4 frigates) capture stuff with some prioritization (nav beacons before anything, then something else etc)

that way you don't have to burn all of your CP to set up basic escort behavior etc.

you could set up formations and deployment areas too. it would be really nice to be able to deploy squadrons as groups rather than individuals. need PD this battle? just deploy your PD destroyer detachment which are set up to automatically escort cruiser+ ships.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Auto-Retreat
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2018, 03:52:52 PM »

Hull damage is not a good indicator of remaining combat value.

I agree, but it's a decent measure of continued survivability, which is what we're interested in here, and unfortunately there's no better way to measure that.

Besides, I fundamentally disagree that "being wiped is a waste of player time". That only applies if you consider reloading after a wipe mandatory. I think the high stakes of combat are essential for its intensity, and rebuilding after a wipe is an educational and interesting part of the game.

You might not reload, and I sometimes might not reload, but we are not most people. I think there's a lot of people out there, probably more than half the playerbase, that do not tolerate a wipe.

And combat would still have high stakes. ??? If anything they would be higher. But that's fine, the goal is to lower the strategic danger of combat, not the tactical danger.
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TaLaR

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Re: Auto-Retreat
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2018, 09:21:46 PM »

Besides, I fundamentally disagree that "being wiped is a waste of player time". That only applies if you consider reloading after a wipe mandatory. I think the high stakes of combat are essential for its intensity, and rebuilding after a wipe is an educational and interesting part of the game.

You might not reload, and I sometimes might not reload, but we are not most people. I think there's a lot of people out there, probably more than half the playerbase, that do not tolerate a wipe.

And combat would still have high stakes. ??? If anything they would be higher. But that's fine, the goal is to lower the strategic danger of combat, not the tactical danger.

Yep, being able to reload allows for higher stakes and more challenging fights.
You can't take 50/50 chances on ironman - correct behavior would be to just avoid such fight. You can with reloads - if you fail first time, you think about what you did wrong and fix that, thus improving your skill as player.

Consistent design for ironman essentially requires some degree of boredom, since encounters need to be simple enough to be reliably winnable (with minor losses/varying amount of resources spent). I do not want this in Starsector.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 09:24:51 PM by TaLaR »
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Megas

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Re: Auto-Retreat
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2018, 04:20:33 AM »

Yep, being able to reload allows for higher stakes and more challenging fights.
You can't take 50/50 chances on ironman - correct behavior would be to just avoid such fight. You can with reloads - if you fail first time, you think about what you did wrong and fix that, thus improving your skill as player.
Playing classic Roguelikes with permadeath like Angband encourages safe play.  Player that wants to win tends to use safe, no-risk moves.  In Angband where there are plenty of one-shot killers after early-game, you do not want to rely on moves that may fail.  Even 1% fail rate will eventually kill you if relied on at a bad time.  0% fail rate is what players should use.  Escapes to avoid risky fights are highly recommended.  To win such games, you play dirty coward.
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Gothars

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Re: Auto-Retreat
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2018, 02:23:46 AM »

@SafariJohn, TaLaR, Megas

Ah, I think I know where we differ fundamentally - I love to roleplay a Starfarer, you love to play (and "win") the game. For me, the real possibility of defeat is important for immersion. I do not, btw., play it safe at all - I take high risks, and as a result suffer defeat and throw-backs regularily. Many of my play-through don't reach "endgame".
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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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Plasmatic

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Re: Auto-Retreat
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2018, 07:14:21 AM »

Since this hasn't been posted here before, theres a mod for you guys..

While it doesn't do everything you mention, it covers some basic behaviors

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13199.0

Via 0 cost hullmods you can set certain behaviors, like retreating at certain CR or hull levels, and tell them to GTFO instead of loligag around weapons range of enemies.. (THANK YOU)
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