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Author Topic: Do-nothing AI.  (Read 12109 times)

Voyager I

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #75 on: October 28, 2018, 02:46:57 PM »

My experience with high mobility ships is that they are easy to scare away (with fighters or beams), but if you aren't paying attention or are isolated, they will punish you. I think that is ok general balance for player vs AI, but in AI vs AI, the defending ship doesn't make the mistakes that allow for punishment (they are always paying attention), so the mobility ship doesn't get any value. I don't think that really changes until the AI becomes too frustrating to deal with as the player.

Really?  I've kinda found it to be the opposite - the AI has a hard time correctly evaluating the threat levels of ships that break the conventional rules of combat and often lets ships get caught out by predictable interactions because it doesn't know how to think that way.  Phase ships are some of the biggest offenders (the AI doesn't understand that it can go from 'out of effective range' to 'behind me' faster than it can turn around), but you can even see it with stuff like combat-bonused player ships that have much higher burst damage than is typical.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #76 on: October 28, 2018, 03:23:51 PM »

Really?  I've kinda found it to be the opposite - the AI has a hard time correctly evaluating the threat levels of ships that break the conventional rules of combat and often lets ships get caught out by predictable interactions because it doesn't know how to think that way.  Phase ships are some of the biggest offenders (the AI doesn't understand that it can go from 'out of effective range' to 'behind me' faster than it can turn around), but you can even see it with stuff like combat-bonused player ships that have much higher burst damage than is typical.

I don't think the AI makes the shield micro mistakes that a player would make. It will always block high burst damage like missiles and AM blasters so phase ships can't sneak damage in the same way they might against a player who can't pay attention to everything at once. Ships with fixed forward shields might by more susceptible, but that is just the nature of the ship.

What is was getting at was that phase AI ships never actually ends up right behind you because they are too afraid/easily scared away (and the defensive AI will always notice it and scare it away), but if it were actually good enough to abuse its mobility, then it would be oppressive. I agree that the AI is susceptible to mobility, but the enemy AI is not able to take advantage of that, while on the other hand, the defensive AI is always paying attention, so it doesn't accidentally take a reaper in the engines like the player might.
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TaLaR

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2018, 09:34:05 PM »

I don't think the AI makes the shield micro mistakes that a player would make. It will always block high burst damage like missiles and AM blasters so phase ships can't sneak damage in the same way they might against a player who can't pay attention to everything at once. Ships with fixed forward shields might by more susceptible, but that is just the nature of the ship.

Absolutely nope, player piloted phase frigates can easily bypass omni-shields with AM blasters (just fire off-center ahead of enemy shield rotation). You can even bypass omni shields with Reapers (without relying on QD), though this gets more tricky (doable vs capitals, very hard vs cruisers. Not doable vs DE/frigate - smaller ship's shields just raise/rotate faster relative to their size).

Key here is to fire close enough to currently deployed shield position to make AI believe that it can handle the problem by rotating shield, while actually either catching the projectile is impossible at this point(AM blaster) or can only be done by re-raising (Reapers),

Another fun, though less practical way to bypass omni-shields is to fire annihilators while orbiting the enemy ship in time accelerated Scarab. If you get everything right, your attacks arrive near simultaneously from multiple directions.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 10:05:14 PM by TaLaR »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #78 on: October 28, 2018, 10:58:32 PM »

I was referring to weapon fire from other AI ships not the player. Like I said multiple times, the player can abuse mobility mechanics, but the AI will not, so AI phase ships won't land shots in those situations. I believe the AI is better at shield micro than the player simply because the player has to simultaneously manage movement, weapons and shields. If the AI were good enough at piloting phase ships to bypass AI shields, it would be even more effective against the player.

The whole point I've been trying to get across is that in order to make the AI effective at piloting phase ships/hyperion, you would have to make it abuse all the things you mentioned, but that would be incredibly frustrating for the player to deal with. That is why I don't want phase ships to be more effective. There is probably some middle ground for improvement over current AI, but phase ships should not ever abuse the things the player can.
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TaLaR

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2018, 11:20:54 PM »

I was referring to weapon fire from other AI ships not the player. Like I said multiple times, the player can abuse mobility mechanics, but the AI will not, so AI phase ships won't land shots in those situations. I believe the AI is better at shield micro than the player simply because the player has to simultaneously manage movement, weapons and shields. If the AI were good enough at piloting phase ships to bypass AI shields, it would be even more effective against the player.

The whole point I've been trying to get across is that in order to make the AI effective at piloting phase ships/hyperion, you would have to make it abuse all the things you mentioned, but that would be incredibly frustrating for the player to deal with. That is why I don't want phase ships to be more effective. There is probably some middle ground for improvement over current AI, but phase ships should not ever abuse the things the player can.

AI is better in sense that it has undivided attention (and player simply can't control weapons + shield + movement at the same time input-wise). But it also makes predictably exploitable mistakes, where player could discern important points and concentrate on them.

It's ok for player vs AI Hyperion/phase scenario to be a struggle for survival (since you win by CR), with most extreme uncounterable options nerfed (like QD on Afflictor, invulnerability frame finishers, or invulnerability due to sequential Hyperion teleports).
AI Hyperion/phase should be counterable, but it doesn't have to be easy.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 11:22:48 PM by TaLaR »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #80 on: October 29, 2018, 12:12:25 AM »

The player is limited by human reaction times and precision while the AI is not. Even if the player is able to react fast enough to counter the AI (which not everyone will be able to), the amount of effort/skill required to beat that sort of ship (AI playing optimally) is totally disproportional to the size and value of the actual ship. The player would have to devote their full attention and resources to defeating one frigate worth 8 op. A frigate should not require more skill/effort to defeat than a capital ship. Also, the optimal strategy would be to deploy 20 phase frigates of your own. If the AI could actually use them, they would be much more cost effective than any other ship in the game. 
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TaLaR

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #81 on: October 29, 2018, 12:54:33 AM »

The player is limited by human reaction times and precision while the AI is not. Even if the player is able to react fast enough to counter the AI (which not everyone will be able to), the amount of effort/skill required to beat that sort of ship (AI playing optimally) is totally disproportional to the size and value of the actual ship. The player would have to devote their full attention and resources to defeating one frigate worth 8 op. A frigate should not require more skill/effort to defeat than a capital ship. Also, the optimal strategy would be to deploy 20 phase frigates of your own. If the AI could actually use them, they would be much more cost effective than any other ship in the game. 

AI could potentially be faster than player, sure. But the way it's currently implemented, it seems actually slower. Probably both for performance reasons and to avoid situation you describe.

Afflictor should probably be closer to Hyperion in cost, maintenance and rarity. And massed Afflictors is what already happens in pursue for maximum efficiency, with nitpick being 'chain-deployed'.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 02:33:17 AM by TaLaR »
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Voyager I

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #82 on: October 29, 2018, 09:42:33 PM »

The player is limited by human reaction times and precision while the AI is not. Even if the player is able to react fast enough to counter the AI (which not everyone will be able to), the amount of effort/skill required to beat that sort of ship (AI playing optimally) is totally disproportional to the size and value of the actual ship. The player would have to devote their full attention and resources to defeating one frigate worth 8 op. A frigate should not require more skill/effort to defeat than a capital ship. Also, the optimal strategy would be to deploy 20 phase frigates of your own. If the AI could actually use them, they would be much more cost effective than any other ship in the game. 

AI could potentially be faster than player, sure. But the way it's currently implemented, it seems actually slower. Probably both for performance reasons and to avoid situation you describe.

IIRC the AI has built-in delays to its reaction times with stuff like shield micro to make it appear less robotic and give the player opportunities to outplay it.

Might be nifty to see handicaps like that taken off on some kind of REDACTED boss ship though.
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