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Author Topic: Do-nothing AI.  (Read 12108 times)

Voyager I

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2018, 10:12:17 AM »

If you have an overwhelming advantage how do you lose?  When the AI has an overwhelming advantage it will tend to push it

Because I have six destroyers and twelve frigates trying to jump an overextending cruiser. But rather than push that advantage, I get mobbed by the entire enemy fleet before noticing my fleet decided to quickly 180 and fly to the furthest corner. Because *** gameplay, I guess.

We could provide better feedback if you posted examples of things that really happened instead of raging.
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Goumindong

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2018, 11:27:44 PM »

If you have an overwhelming advantage how do you lose?  When the AI has an overwhelming advantage it will tend to push it

Because I have six destroyers and twelve frigates trying to jump an overextending cruiser. But rather than push that advantage, I get mobbed by the entire enemy fleet before noticing my fleet decided to quickly 180 and fly to the furthest corner. Because *** gameplay, I guess.

I have never had anything remotely happen like that. But then again, i also don't know how you can get mobbed by an enemy fleet when they have an over-extended cruiser. If their cruiser is over-extended then its not in a position for you to be mobbed by a fleet. If their cruiser is in a position to mob ships that are coming to shoot it then its not over-extended.
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Histidine

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2018, 12:47:01 AM »

There's a known bug (fixed in 0.9) where a ship's AI can get stuck and it just drifts away endlessly, but I've never seen it happen to three player ships at once, much less ten or more.

Maybe a video would help us see what exactly is going wrong and with what kind of ships.
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Schwartz

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2018, 04:06:43 AM »

I also see dumb stuff happen occasionally on a smaller scale. Often it's something like a phase frigate backing off just when it shouldn't, or a ship not firing when an enemy's shields are down or flux is high. I've seen single ships, but never a whole fleet playing timid.
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TaLaR

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2018, 04:35:37 AM »

I also see dumb stuff happen occasionally on a smaller scale. Often it's something like a phase frigate backing off just when it shouldn't, or a ship not firing when an enemy's shields are down or flux is high. I've seen single ships, but never a whole fleet playing timid.

Phase frigates are special case. Compared to what they really can do (one-shot most opponents by bypassing omni-shields, while exploiting invulnerability frames to avoid death explosion), AI piloting of them is one big failure as whole. But maybe they should not be so overpowered in the first place (even if it's fun to exploit).
At the same time, it's still infinitely better than AI handling of Hyperion.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 04:38:00 AM by TaLaR »
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Schwartz

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2018, 05:43:06 AM »

It's also better than it used to be. The only thing I would do is reduce the time compression down to 2x, which is still a lot.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2018, 10:02:36 AM »

Does anyone actually want the AI to properly use phase ships/hyperion? That sounds awful, getting one shot with no counter-play. The whole concept is not fun to play against, I'm totally ok with the AI being bad at using them. The alternative is much worse.
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TaLaR

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2018, 02:42:27 PM »

Does anyone actually want the AI to properly use phase ships/hyperion? That sounds awful, getting one shot with no counter-play. The whole concept is not fun to play against, I'm totally ok with the AI being bad at using them. The alternative is much worse.

Hyperion does have counterplay, player just never really needs to practice it.
First of all in Paragon vs Hyperion scenario, Paragon could just refuse to drop shield. Hyperion can't really build up hard flux on it, wait it out or anything else. A 360 shield that powerful stops it completely.
Even simple non-360 omni shield could stop it. You just need to keep shield down and reaction-raise it as Hyperion jumps (it sounds more difficult than actually is).
With just forward shield - sure, alone you can't do anything. But multiple ships could form up back-to-back, which would at the very least complicate Hyperion's job (and actually stop it, if they are close enough - can't jump into other ship's collision radius).
To win you don't really need to kill it. Just preventing it from killing you is already a win by CR.
So, yeah, I'd like AI Hyperions to be competent. It costs like a cruiser, it should be at least a comparable threat.

As a side note: Hyperion vs Hyperion fights are like wild west duels. Jump behind enemy, as they try to jump behind you. But AI is very predictable and has large delay on sequential jumps, so this gets old fast.

Stopping current Afflictor with QD is actually more difficult - because QD shuts down most of your options. But Afflictor will lose QD in next release anyway.
At which point smarter shield management + accelerated shield might be just enough (can't really test it against current AI...).
Well, invulnerability frame kill may be a bit too good too, so maybe nerf that to oblivion as well.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 02:49:17 PM by TaLaR »
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Megas

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2018, 04:14:52 PM »

2x phase might be okay for frigates (although I would not want that), but it would make bigger ships useless.  Harbinger needs Auxiliary Thrusters and Unstable Injector to bypass omni shields.

AI is stupid with shields against Hyperion, and even if it managed to raise shields, it is easy to force it by withdrawing far away to think it is safe.  (This happens to be the same way Odyssey with Lances and Salamanders can cheese a win against Paragon).

Phase ships are only overpowered with invulnerability frames.  Without them, they are weak, or least overpriced for their performance.  AI does not exploit I-frames, and I suspect many players are not aware of them either and cannot exploit what they do not know.  (I was not for a long time.  As soon as TaLaR made me aware of I-frames, I have been abusing them like psychic or wake-up Dragon Punches in an early Street Fighter 2 game.)

Afflictor with Quantum Disruptor is very scary.  If it gets the first draw, it shuts down the opponent, and the follow-up double AM Blaster will two-hit kill any frigate fast enough to hang with it.  Anything fast enough to counter Afflictor can be likewise be countered by said Afflictor if it acts first.

Quote
So, yeah, I'd like AI Hyperions to be competent. It costs like a cruiser, it should be at least a comparable threat.
Hyperion costs as much as Falcon.  I have no problem giving AI Falcons, at least they use them well enough.  I do not give AI Hyperions because it is too busy avoiding combat like Arilou.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2018, 05:18:38 PM »

Paragon could just refuse to drop shield. Hyperion can't really build up hard flux on it, wait it out or anything else. A 360 shield that powerful stops it completely.
Even simple non-360 omni shield could stop it. You just need to keep shield down and reaction-raise it as Hyperion jumps (it sounds more difficult than actually is).
With just forward shield - sure, alone you can't do anything. But multiple ships could form up back-to-back, which would at the very least complicate Hyperion's job (and actually stop it, if they are close enough - can't jump into other ship's collision radius).
To win you don't really need to kill it. Just preventing it from killing you is already a win by CR.
So, yeah, I'd like AI Hyperions to be competent. It costs like a cruiser, it should be at least a comparable threat.

In a 1v1, sure, there is some counter play, but many of these suggestions are totally infeasible in a fleet context, unless you don't engage the rest of the enemy fleet (which isn't always an option).

-Ships will have to drop shields eventually. Maybe paragon can be mostly safe (it would still have to avoid enemy capitals), but every other ship cannot keep shields up indefinitely while also engaging other ships. You would have to play very passively to avoid taking hard flux from the rest of the enemies, i.e. never engage.
-In order to react with omni shields, you have to be aware of where the hyperion is and be ready to react, but the hyperion can cross the map in seconds, so that would require constantly pausing and checking the map to see where the hyperion is, or never engaging any ship besides the hyperion.
-Being forced to stay in very close proximity to your fleet is just boring, and if your ships are 'back to back', half of them are facing the wrong way and not contributing to the fight.

You also can't guarantee your fleet will do these things, so you will likely lose ships without being able to prevent it, unless you pilot your own hyperion and duel it.

All these suggestions basically boil down to 'don't do anything, hide in your fleet and wait for it to run out of CR', or have your own hyperion. How is that fun or interesting gameplay? And how can you justify one frigate forcing you to play like that? Enemy cruisers don't force you to totally change the way you approach the game. I vastly prefer the ship being functionally player only. You can get the value of a cruiser from it if you want, you just have to fly it yourself.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 05:20:31 PM by intrinsic_parity »
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Voyager I

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2018, 05:41:02 PM »

Yeah my argument against Hyperions and the turbo-Phase ships has always been that the counterplay, where it exists, is typically "huddle your whole fleet in a ball so there's nowhere it can get behind anybody and cower together like this until its CR runs out and it withdraws".

The AI actually being able to use phase ships to their full potential would be the *** worst.
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Thaago

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2018, 07:54:36 PM »

Phase ships are fairly easy to counter but requires having a large fighter force. If you have a half dozen spark wings slapping a fighter strike down on enemy phase ships works great.

Other than that though, the only counter play is turtling + waiting, which is boring as all hell.
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Goumindong

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2018, 09:09:00 PM »

Phase ships are also hard countered by beams.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2018, 09:57:57 PM »

My experience with high mobility ships is that they are easy to scare away (with fighters or beams), but if you aren't paying attention or are isolated, they will punish you. I think that is ok general balance for player vs AI, but in AI vs AI, the defending ship doesn't make the mistakes that allow for punishment (they are always paying attention), so the mobility ship doesn't get any value. I don't think that really changes until the AI becomes too frustrating to deal with as the player.

I also realized that some of the strange behavior where the AI backs off when it seems to have an advantage may be tied to flux management issues. If the AI expends a lot of flux to overload an enemy, it will also be high on flux and may want to vent instead of taking advantage of the opening it just created. I generally prioritize flux efficiency when I outfit ships for the AI, and I rarely if ever see these issues. My approach to dealing with things the AI is bad at is to not let it use them. I never let the AI pilot any high tech ship unless it is a beam load out because I know that it can't use those ships effectively, and is likely to die or take significant damage where it would not with another ship or load out.
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TaLaR

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Re: Do-nothing AI.
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2018, 10:21:48 PM »

All these suggestions basically boil down to 'don't do anything, hide in your fleet and wait for it to run out of CR', or have your own hyperion. How is that fun or interesting gameplay? And how can you justify one frigate forcing you to play like that? Enemy cruisers don't force you to totally change the way you approach the game. I vastly prefer the ship being functionally player only. You can get the value of a cruiser from it if you want, you just have to fly it yourself.

True, you wouldn't be able to catch a competent Hyperion without one of your own. Or maybe Afflictor (in it's current QD form, and maybe character skill for extra time acceleration thrown in for good measure).

Though the real reason for this is - there is only a split second of vulnerability between sequential jumps. It's too short for beams to register a hit, but projectiles can occasionally hit (tested by continuously jumping within dense fire stream from enemy Paragon). I'm not sure this was actually intended by Alex. But it makes Hyperion only really vulnerable when venting, and it gets to choose where it vents to cover that.

I think putting player on the back foot occasionally and making them work to counter specific threat would be not that bad.
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