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Author Topic: Do-nothing AI.  (Read 3944 times)
Megas
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« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2018, 09:18:40 AM »

Cowardly AI applies to your AI-controlled ships too!  This tends to result in ships on both sides trying to encircle each other but failing, and at worst, stall until CR decays to zero.  If player does not intervene directly somehow, it is easily possible for two fleets to stalemate due to mutual cowardice.  Eliminate sometimes suppresses it well enough, sometimes not.  But it is not safe to Eliminate if the enemy is not at a disadvantage, because enemy will just kite and cower more until its friends encircle your ships and mob them.
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Psycho Society
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« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2018, 05:09:29 PM »

It's not the ai's job to make killing them easy. If you're used to enemies on other games that act half brain damaged and stay in one place while you slowly chip them down, you should probably rethink some things
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Megas
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« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2018, 06:21:41 PM »

Rethinking things may not necessarily be good, if the solutions are few and unappealing.  It could lead to "This game sucks! I want my money back!" or less harsh posts like the OP.  After all, in that one version with Timid officers and high-powered skills, the optimal solution was wait until they run out of CR first.
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lethargie
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« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2018, 05:35:25 AM »

Of course, but outside of early game solution are many and appealing. It's a rewarding side effect that due to the AI player action have more effect.

Now, early game can definitely be miserable, but its not so much because of AI than because of the few choices available.

Finally, I do not say that the AI is perfect, or even impressive, but it does the job well and lead to very good medium to large engagement.
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Vensalir
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« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2018, 12:00:26 PM »

I must say that I, too, find the AI a bit annoying on frigates. As it has already been said, it behaves reasonably well in medium and large encounters, but in small ones it is way too passive in my opinion. Also, the AI's tendency to keep the distance in reverse until CR runs out is a bit aggravating, especially when there is only one enemy ship standing. It's clear victory is impossible, why doesn't it retreat ?

I think it should be a little more daring, and perhaps try more diverse tactics. For instance, a less-capable frigate could try for strafing passes instead of going for a head-on slugging match.

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Cik
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« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2018, 01:52:57 PM »

maybe the solution is to randomize non-officer adversaries temperaments as if they were officers?

that way not all of them would be so standoffish

though personally i never have trouble mopping up, and it seems like (for me) the moment i snap the enemy center of gravity his light support retreats regardless.
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Embercloud
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« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2018, 12:51:40 AM »

To be frank, having an aggressive, defensive or balanced toggle for ship behaviour on the refit screen is a great idea.
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Morbo513
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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2018, 04:06:35 AM »

Catching them is a problem for you to solve.
Agreed, as is either fleet generally playing hard-to-get. The only things I'd wish are for 1: NPC fleets to become more aggressive (or in terms of retreating, decisive) as their fleet-wide  CR diminishes (including reserved combat ships, but not retreated ships), and 2: for the player to be given more/better tools for dictating his own fleet's disposition in combat.

To be frank, having an aggressive, defensive or balanced toggle for ship behaviour on the refit screen is a great idea.
IMO something like that should be both there and accessible from the tactical map
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 04:09:02 AM by Morbo513 » Logged
Linnis
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« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2018, 04:03:26 PM »

The AI aggressive-level tied to officers and non officer only has default makes sense lore wise. Perhaps allow officers to toggle between an range of AI aggression levels?  Either way seems like a improvement over the current officer locked to one trait.
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ThePollie
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« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2018, 10:03:36 PM »

Yeah, I've had enough of this game. I'm done losing fights that I have overwhelming advantage in because even ordering a full assault isn't enough to convince my side to participate. I'll find a better game elsewhere. At least Mount&Blade's suicidal AI engages when you tell them to charge, be damned the odds.
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Goumindong
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« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2018, 11:00:01 PM »

If you have an overwhelming advantage how do you lose?  When the AI has an overwhelming advantage it will tend to push it
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Nick XR
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« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2018, 04:40:34 PM »

@ThePollie if you have a particular battle that you think is a good demonstrator of what you're seeing, you could upload it somewhere we could takea look at it.
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Xaiier
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« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2018, 05:02:02 PM »

I posted this over in the other thread, but I figured it was worth reposting in here.

I think the AI problems reveal themselves the most when they have faster ships. Obviously some stalling from fast frigates and phase ships makes sense, but it gets very silly once larger ships start doing it.

Here's some experiments I did:

(how do I make this image not huge?)

First I pitted three long range equipped Eagles, vs the Sim Aurora. Obviously not a fair fight. The Aurora enters their range, realizes it is outmatched, and starts to pull back. At this point the AI seems to get locked into a loop of indecisiveness - it never pulls back enough to vent and try again (it's definitely fast enough to, with the boost), nor does it try to outmaneuver them and take one out. It just sits there at the limits of their range, presumably thinking, "duhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" until it eventually is worn down and destroyed, having not fired a single shot.

This was a pretty optimal case for my fleet - my ships were fast enough and long ranged enough that they didn't have much trouble keeping pressure on it while it did this. If your fleet is slow and poor at keeping constant pressure on it though, this kind of thing can last indefinitely, and you can't just throw faster frigates at the problem, because it will chew those up no problem.

Also, for some inexplicable reason, the middle Eagle backed out of range right as the Aurora was about to go down. This is another issue I notice a lot - instead of pressing an advantage or keeping the pressure up, they will periodically back off for no reason, allowing the enemy ships time to recover and greatly lengthening the fight. Perhaps it is related.

So I tried the test again, with two Eagles vs the Sim Aurora. This time it did a bit better, attempting to focus one of them before having to retreat back to vent. It still eventually losing without damaging either of them at all, because again it got stuck indecisively sat around at the edge of their range pondering what to do. Again, the Eagle that wasn't being focused randomly backed off out of range for no reason.

I ran it one more time with just one Eagle. The Aurora did better here, because once it was able to flux lock the Eagle, it stopped taking as much fire itself (an important consideration). It did still spend a concerning amount of time hovering at the extents of the Eagle's range instead of just backing off to vent, and it could have ended the fight a lot sooner if it had kept the pressure up on the Eagle.

So basically, in certain situations the AI breaks down completely. It's indecisive, not aggressive enough when it needs to be, and overly cautious even when it has the advantage. It's a pain to chase these enemies around the map, and then when you finally corner them, your buddies refuse to engage.
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Cik
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« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2018, 05:26:09 PM »

I think the AI has problems calculating it's chance of success as a group rather than individuals.

many times, several frigates will hold a S/O range against a lone adversary, even thought they could easily murder it 3v1. those eagles make me think that it's not considering it's actual group advantage.. each eagle says "i may lose this fight, i should hold range.." without realizing that if they just went in, they could easily win the flux war with their combined weapons.

likewise, the aurora doesn't realize that with it's superior speed and initiative, it can turn this 3v1 into a 1v1 in which case it can win. frigates especially seem to fall victim as individually they are quite weak and fragile. at least if you have a cruiser, if it sits around undecidedly it can usually deliver fire on something to some effect, even if all it's going to do is standoff and shoot it contributes noticeably to the battle.
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Alex
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« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2018, 05:38:20 PM »

The only things I'd wish are for 1: NPC fleets to become more aggressive (or in terms of retreating, decisive) as their fleet-wide  CR diminishes (including reserved combat ships, but not retreated ships),

This is a thing in 0.9, btw, or more specifically: ships that are running low on CR/peak time get progressively more aggressive.


Re: SO Lashers - not sure what the issue might be, but taking a quick look currently, an SO Lasher swarm (with Steady AI, to boot) has no issues taking down an Eagle/Paragon/whatever, so whatever it was probably got resolved. Or it may be a non-vanilla issue, possibly.


Also, took a look at the use of Maneuvering/Plasma jets for backing off while venting - the AI for that system is quite old, and it was possible to make an easy adjustment based on the new data that's now available to the AI ("historical" data re: how the last few seconds have been going), and that should be much improved as well. In a vs-three-Eagles fight, it now reliably backs off to vent/dissipate flux and then re-engages. Thanks for the example, btw - those are so useful in reproducing and addressing undesirable AI behaviors!
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