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[ThePollie]

Is it eventually planned to change the behavior of the AI to not simply drive backwards away from any and every engagement that isn't so hopelessly one-sided in their favour that they couldn't even lose it on purpose, or is it intentional for a game about space fighting to be programmed to avoid all space fighting?

[Cik]

also while we're bellyaching about AI behavior, they need to stop being so conservative with missiles.

FIRE THE MISSILES

also i'd really like a "salvo" order that you can assign to friendly ships against an enemy target to force missile release against a target

thx

[Alex]

If we're talking specifically about frigates, it can indeed be a bit aggravating at times; apologies It's a tricky balance because it can also be very effective, and additionally helps *your* frigates avoid dying in smaller fights. I did make some changes for 0.9a that should generally move things in the right direction as far as all this is concerned.

In the meantime I'd suggest making sure you have the right counters - carriers in particular work really well and make this a non-issue if you have them. Ships with mobility systems can also work well. So can longer-ranged weapons with enough damage potential.

That said, ships will generally try to back off when they're outmatched or high on flux and whatnot, that's certainly intentional. So this really depends on exactly which behaviors you're talking about, which I don't know because there's a range of behaviors here we could be talking about.

[Cik]

often times frigate behavior is largely optimal. if it's frigate v destroyer, the frigate most often chooses "stand off, and wait" behavior which distracts the guy he's engaging and keeps himself alive. the problem is that the AI judges it's strength based mostly on it's own strength- if it significantly outnumbers it's opponent and could easily kill it, it fails to press the attack in most cases. this is one of the reasons why smaller ships are less useful than they should/could be, as a single cruiser isn't usually very reticent to attack as it feels it has a chance, and it's greater standoff weaponry means that even if all it does is hold at max range of it's gun belts it still noticeably contributes to the battle.

[Megas]

"Do-nothing AI." is what I frequently call cowardly AI or Spathi.  Even the more aggressive AIs are too cowardly in general.  There are not too many easy counters for that.  The easiest one is to bring lots of fighters because they cannot run from that easily.  (At least half of my ships in my fleet are carriers, and most of the rest have Converted Hangar.)  Occasionally, I run down the clock and let them hit 0 CR first so they cannot move anymore.

It used to not be like this (aside from Timid officers in enemy fleets for one release).  Spathi AI came in full in the 0.8 era.

So can longer-ranged weapons with enough damage potential.

Does not always work if there are not enough attackers (or fighters) to distract them.  They simply hang out further away.

[TJJ]

For gameplay purposes, I wouldn't be opposed to the player's fleet AI behaving less aggressively than the enemy AI. (Or rather, the enemy AI should be more aggressive than player AI)

Ultimately AI behaviour should be there to serve the entertainment of the human player, which is often not the same as being efficient, optimal or balanced.

[ThePollie]

So far my experience has been my fleet refusing to engage unless they outnumber a 1% hull opponent 12:1. No enemy will me, period. Even if I'm hopelessly outgunned, it takes effort to convince them to actually engage me. Ordering all out assaults is hit and miss. Sometimes my fleet attacks, other times they drive in and out of range and never engage. This game has been a frustrating experience of cat&mouse with an opponent that simply doesn't want to play.

[Megas]

This game has been a frustrating experience of cat&mouse with an opponent that simply doesn't want to play.

This is how many fights since 0.8 feel like (and why I overuse fighters to mitigate the frustration when I can, or build for maximum peak performance and run down the clock when I cannot).

[Dri]

Bro, lets tone down the hyperbole a bit.

Are you like, even piloting your ship? As the player one of the most important things you can do in battle is force an engagement on a juicy target.

Also, what type of officers are you using? Please tell me you ain't using the timid types, go for the more aggressive ones.

Finally, make use of that Eliminate order and bring a carrier or two to chase down fast types.

[Megas]

In my case...

Yes, I pilot my ship.  Since it is one of the bigger ones, it has no chance to catch smaller ships, unless it is a carrier.  I tend to use Legion frequently late in the game because it is capable of forcing fights against a wide variety of targets and be a match against an enemy battleship.  Even in midgame, when I had a choice of buying either Eagle or Heron, I picked Heron because I had trouble forcing fights with Medusa.  In difficult fights, I pilot quad lance Paragon.  Slowest there is, but devastating to anything short of a battlestation if they wander into Paragon's shot range.

I use Steady officers (because my fleet commander is Steady by default if given to AI control).  In the few 0.8 games I played, I do not bother leveling them up because 1) I was too lazy to save scum their skills. 2) For my first game, I wanted to see how far an unskilled character could go.

Eliminate is risky.  It often plays into the cowardly enemy AI.  They simply retreat more and your ships get encircled and overwhelmed.  Once the battle is mostly decided, it is safer to Eliminate and mop up.  Of course, sometimes, even Eliminate is not always aggressive enough.

Reckless AI, assuming that is what Remnants use, is not immune to cowardice.  I have seen Remnant frigates fight like Spathi too much.  Feels like I am playing Spathi vs. X in Star Control more than Starsector.

[lethargie]

Honestly, this only happen at the beginning of the game when you have very small fleet. Generally as soon as I get a cruiser and some support fighters I don't have too many problems.

Remember that you do not need to kill all the enemy fleet to win the engagement. Aim for the slower, bigger ship. This will either drag the enemy frigate in the combat, or you will probably destroy a valuable target and the enemy will run away. Specialize some of your ship for frigate hunting duties and send them after you've cleaned hard target. A safety overide/unstable injector medusa will wipe most lone frigates.

Tachyon lance on a sunder/odyssey/paragon are really good at vaporizing frigate that try to fly around.

If anything, the AI is not passive enough. I would like to keep some small frigate to guard the backside of my slower ship, but they always end up trying to shoot at a paragon and disappearing.

Another horrible display of not enough passivity is when one of my small ship go the furthest away from the main engagement to duel with a bigger slower ship that will obviously kill it with time.

In some situation I feel I could have won if the AI at stuck with me and charged in, but these are few and far between and doesn't feel like unfair behavior (since everyone does it, and it makes sense that my ship are a bit afraid of being blown.) Officer AI helps with that

[Linnis]

Passivity is fine. Only time its blaring visible is when you are trying to chase something with no fighter support (sometimes fighter will just escort instead of attacking). The other is watching one of your destoryer chase frigate to the corner of the maps. Then after everything is mopped up, they are still there in the corner...e

[Goumindong]

Is it eventually planned to change the behavior of the AI to not simply drive backwards away from any and every engagement that isn't so hopelessly one-sided in their favour that they couldn't even lose it on purpose, or is it intentional for a game about space fighting to be programmed to avoid all space fighting?

The short answer is that its decent AI. If you're the one being focused you should pull back so that your allies can get shots in. This is primarily what frigates are doing when they're unable to survive your bombardment.

The solution is either fighters or player skills. Many player skills and kits make this strategy less annoying. But as soon as you play them you will see why the strategy is necessary. If you're running an SO ship and your target doesn't try to run away from you then you slaughter it with zero risk. Its only that it can potentially get support from its allies that your target has a chance.

[TaLaR]

If anything, AI is not cowardly enough. Approaching a 4xTL Paragon's firing range 1v1 (or with insufficient amount of allies) is a pointless suicide for anything sub-capital, yet AI does so.

If you pilot slower + more powerful ship, why should AI suicide into you? Catching them is a problem for you to solve.

[Megas]

If you pilot slower + more powerful ship, why should AI suicide into you? Catching them is a problem for you to solve.

The problem is if the easiest or optimal solution is to wait until the other side ticks down to 0 CR first, it is a problem, because fights can drag on up to about an hour, and the player can take breaks while waiting.  It was a reason why enemy AI is no longer allowed to have Timid officers after one release.

Back when enemy had Timid officers, my capital sat on objectives and waited until they ran out of CR first.  If I deployed more ships, then the enemy would deploy more ships (possibly with super-charged skills) and either I waste more resources for being impatient at best or my wingmen would make a mistake and die.  While waiting, I left the computer and did other work, come back, and my ship is still safe, while the enemy was dancing and hovering as it did ten minutes ago.  Clearly a case of optimizing the fun out of the game, but acting stupid (by deploying more ships I do not need if I only wait another thirty minutes) just because I lost patience is not fun either.