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Author Topic: Frigates  (Read 4082 times)

Cik

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Frigates
« on: October 09, 2018, 04:51:37 AM »

one issue that's near and dear to my heart is the plight of escorts, specifically the small ones. while my traditional plank is carriers and fighters, those are now in a good place (and often rule the field, especially with mods) however, while trying to run what i consider a "reasonable fleet" here defined as a fleet that isn't too top heavy with only a few cruisers, a single capital, and many destroyers and frigates it has come to my attention that smaller ships need some help in the current schema of the game. two things in my view have proliferated that makes frigates* mostly obsolete by midgame:

*by frigates i mean conventional frigates, NOT phase frigates which work basically regardless of their size as their ability to ignore incoming fire, position to deliver reapers, deliver reapers and then disengage is basically foolproof

1) preponderance of officers, especially piloting cruisers equipped with gunnery implants / ITU and standoff weapons that can delete frigates, regardless of fit from standoff ranges in seconds

2) preponderance of fighters, which have the trifecta of warfare at their disposal (initiative and ability to close range, striking power easily enough to overwhelm frigates, and near perpetual ability to re-attack)

so the question is, what do we expect frigates to achieve in relatively high level combat, and what prevents them from doing these things really?

my expectations are fivefold:

1) i expect them to be able to control territory (in significant numbers) capture objectives against things that aren't the bulk of the enemy fleet, and thus contribute to tipping the balance of power in the favor of their fleet.

2) i expect them to be hold their own while providing picket/PD/fire support assistance to larger ships. this doesn't mean that they will be invincible while doing so, but if they can do it without dying instantly that would be good.

3) i expect them to be cheap to employ, maintain, and deploy. costs should be low both in DP and supplies necessary to keep them going.

4) i expect them to be disposable, more than heavier ships. they shouldn't necessarily be a huge headache either in time or resources to replace every now and then as you kind of expect them to get chewed up when AI fails the tightrope walk that is a frigate's existence.

5) i expect them to be strategically mobile. they need to be able to move around the field fast enough to apply pressure in specific spots. ideally, i should be able to get them around and to the side of heavier ships that they can attack with strike weapons while heavier ships attack from the front.

so, problems:

1) objectives don't do that much. it's usually simply better to deploy more DP in eavy gunz, ignore the objectives entirely and just focus on shooting your opponent's center of gravity to pieces. this isn't really a frigate-centric problem, but since the ability of fighters to capture things was removed, it now seems like a "frigate job" since on your average battlefield the objectives will be very close to the center anyway, frigates do not really gain anything by being slightly faster than your average median mobility destroyer, and lose lots of range and firepower. just IMO, objectives should be more widely distributed and should be made more effective. in addition, they should probably be crucial in increasing allocated DP to your fleet, meaning that you can bring in more, heavier ships for "free" on top of the frigates after a short wait. this might mean that if you ignore the objectives, you will be significantly outgunned at the "center map shootout" after a short time. battles should be made "wider" so that travel speed matters more, and frigate zero-flux speed boost could be made higher than on other ships so that they can really move strategically very quickly, while still retaining a reasonable combat speed so that they aren't immune to being shot or chased down.

2) this is chiefly a range problem. the proliferation of very high power standoff guns that have no problem hitting even the relatively narrow profile of your average frigate means they cease to exist in seconds with almost zero chance of survival. your average mid-sized fighter engagement's stray missiles also tend to destroy them utterly mostly by accident. it is hard to say how this can be fixed exactly without just giving them capital-level range increases which i think is a poor idea. perhaps just making them strategically faster will solve this to some extent- if you are not in front of your opponent's main battery you don't have to worry so much about the firepower of it. one of the chief survival problems of frigates as they are though, and one that is fixable is that the officer cap means that if you have a mid-to-large size fleet you will not be able to provide officers for your frigates, for a multitude of reasons: you don't have enough, even if you've maxed them out, they may not have the specialized skillsets required for frigates, and you fear losing them every time a frigate blows up (which happens often) i propose that frigates be "squadronable" where a permanent or near-permanent formation is set up consisting of certain frigates, and an officer commands the squadron from either a heavier flagship or one of the frigates. that way, multiple small ships can benefit from an officer without dedicating an officer to each one. i propose frigates having a mass squadron size of 4, and destroyers a max squadron size of 2. squadrons should stick together for the most part, and attack the same target. perhaps an AI sub-behavior could be written for them to make them a little braver when attacking targets they think they can take together.

3) the majority of them aren't cheap enough. 4 frigates costs 16-24 DP which is almost as much as a line cruiser(!) whereas a line cruiser is just on average much more effective. it has greater range, firepower, usually much more capable strike weapons, a much stronger shield, and with the proliferation of mobility systems, it may not even be significantly slower across the table or even tactically. it's also a lot easier for the AI to handle, as getting 4 frigates to attack something in a concerted manner is much harder than to get one cruiser to deliver standoff fire to achieve the same effect. the cruiser is less vulnerable to instant death or flux lock, and doesn't necessarily have the same "instant death weakness" like frigates do (salamanders, sabots, etc) monetarily i think they are costed fine at the moment- by midgame you will be able to buy them en masse with the money you have in pocket.

4) money-wise they are cheap, but that isn't really the game's chief obstacle in terms of disposability. the chief obstacle to disposability is the ability to replace them not monetarily but just finding them in a shop somewhere. every time a frigate dies, you must return to a port that might supply the type you want, check it, see that it is not in stock, then perhaps launch a quest to go find the one or two hulls you like, then track down the relatively rare weapons it takes to make a usable frigate hull. once you've fitted it, it will probably survive two battles and you will be back to square one. a more concrete ship production system is needed that the player can earmark. really i just want to tell tri-tachyon "i am a ship captain in good standing with your faction, you produce 120 wolf frigates a year, i want 2 a month, i am willing to pay you X money for it" and then they will be waiting for me when i get back, with the weapons and crew that i need. if my wolf squadrons are under-strength, i can click one button to draw from my reserves until they are up to strength. done.
the second BIG ISSUE is that you LOSE OFFICERS WHEN THEY BLOW UP, or else forgo officers entirely which is literally a death sentence in the modern game. either basically condemn frigates to uselessness by missing out on the insane scaling officers grant or make the disposability problem MUCH WORSE because now you will have to replace officers which are a real pain to find especially with a good skillset. frigate squadrons would alleviate this problem by moving the frigate officer off the frigates, or at least giving you more mass to work with so they don't die as easily.

5) the preponderance of mobility systems means that frigates are not really significantly faster across the table than other ships. in your average battle (that i see) basically everybody moves into center of the table at the same time, there's a shootout and then the battle is de facto over. the solution is probably a zero-flux boost boost (heh) and making objectives / terrain control matter more. once frigates can move faster, and moving faster means something (getting to the objectives before your opponent) frigates will be more important in general. when the battle spreads out, being able to apply force in one place, and then another, and then another, and the ability to bring in support quickly also means more. i can count on one hand the times i have said to myself "i have been strategically outmaneuvered" where i was significantly surrounded because a bunch of enemy support had gotten around behind me and i was so spread out that i could not regroup fast enough to not get picked off one by one.

tl;dr make frigates good again(tm)

edit: also feel free to disagree with my premises or spitball alternate solutions. i'm presupposing here that frigates aren't supposed to become useless by endgame.




« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 05:24:58 AM by Cik »
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Megas

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2018, 05:33:15 AM »

The biggest problem with frigates and most destroyers in endgame is lack of peak performance.  In an endgame fight, against the cowardly AI that loves to stall, small ships, and occasionally cruisers with degraded subsystems, I use are whining about peak performance expiration and CR decay.  I do not want to flip screens and waste CP retreating small ships one a time that run out of peak performance (since warnings are often staggered and not simultaneous).  I solve that problem by using only capitals and cruisers.  The only destroyer I use in endgame is the Drover, due to being an excellent fighter platform.  Occasionally, I have Hyperion or phase frigates for special assassination jobs or to take out the rare small enemy fleet that does not retreat from an endgame fleet, and I bring a Tempest to enable auto-resolve on the map (for my civilians and captured ships to take advantage of).

In other words, if I decide to win by stalling and outlasting the enemy (or counter the AI that tries that against my fleet), small ships are a poor choice for that.

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the second BIG ISSUE is that you LOSE OFFICERS WHEN THEY BLOW UP
Officers are immortal in standard game.  They may die in Nexerelin and other mods, but not unmodded.

Re: Objectives
I am glad they are irrelevant.  I think the best solution is to remove them entirely so there are no tricks, no AI exploits, no annoying CP sinks, just pure shoot-'em-up action like a glorious arcade-like shooter, once the overly-cowardly AI problem is fixed.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 05:47:05 AM by Megas »
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TaLaR

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 05:47:55 AM »

2) On squadron officer sharing: should be straight 4 size points ( 4 frigates, 2 frigates + DE, 1 frigate + CR, etc). No need to have any other effect than officer sharing itself (unnecessary complication).

3) 4 Frigates, if competently piloted and not massively outclassed in character skills, will tear through any cruiser. 4 Tempests can easily display that much under AI control as is. Even common ones, like 4 SO Melee Lashers would be quite scary, if they were committed and synced well enough(but AI isn't).

As Megas notes CR time is also serious reason to avoid them. In order to make frigates competitive despite that I'd at least want to:
- Be able to reassign officers (deploy with 4 frigates, retreat on CR, deploy same officer with other 4 frigates, etc)
- Have way more ship slots (like 100 at least). It's 40 frigates for single max deployment. And if you need more than 1 wave due to CR time, well...
- Auto retreat on CR becomes a must (otherwise it's micromanagement nightmare). I know it is available as mod, but such changes would make it a core necessity.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 05:51:44 AM by TaLaR »
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Megas

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 06:50:12 AM »

Back in 0.65, 40 frigates, led by skilled Hyperion to eliminate enemy flagship with Combat 10, were enough to steamroll everything.  Part of the reason why frigate horde is undesirable is we cannot bring that many.  We cannot devote all thirty slots to frigates.  Some must be reserved for tankers, and some should be reserved for new ships to be captured.

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- Auto retreat on CR becomes a must (otherwise it's micromanagement nightmare). I know it is available as mod, but such changes would make it a core necessity.
I would like the option to auto-retreat to limit the micromanagement and stop CP hemorrhage.  That could be one of those pre-planned strategies the player could set during the campaign.  Not everything needs to be an in-combat order.  Some should be like football plays, and using CP would be like calling an audible.
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Cik

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 07:17:56 AM »


3) 4 Frigates, if competently piloted and not massively outclassed in character skills, will tear through any cruiser. 4 Tempests can easily display that much under AI control as is. Even common ones, like 4 SO Melee Lashers would be quite scary, if they were committed and synced well enough(but AI isn't).

tempests are a standout case. they are rare, though i guess you have me in that they are technically a conventional frigate. i disagree about the lashers though. obviously i'm unsure of what mods you are using but with a vanilla-like modset half the lashers should die before they even make it into range, and the remaining two would be a stress but probably not a big deal, especially if you have a mobility system and can use it to hold range for a longer duration where they won't be able to effectively return fire. still, they won't last more than a few battles even best case before they are all dead which is a problem. in addition they will have CR for that one engagement if that. the cruiser continues to effect the battlefield for pretty much the whole battle unless it's destroyed utterly.

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As Megas notes CR time is also serious reason to avoid them. In order to make frigates competitive despite that I'd at least want to:

i didn't touch on it but you are right. it seems to me that there isn't something right with it. i can't come up with any reason that frigates should have a drastically short combat span. originally it was probably instituted to deal with the "hound holding range just outside the reach of your guns for eternity" problem but now that fighters massacre them and guns are so good it's no longer an issue. might want to make CR a little flatter in service of making them better.

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- Be able to reassign officers (deploy with 4 frigates, retreat on CR, deploy same officer with other 4 frigates, etc)

hum. i'm not sure if it would remain a problem if their CR endurance was shored up, and i'm not sure about sharing officers. a faster 0 flux move would also make rotating them out less painful. as it is, it takes them quite a while to crawl to board edge and then quite a while for the replacements to reach the fight, whereas a cruiser just sits there and provides fire the whole time making it vastly superior.

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- Have way more ship slots (like 100 at least). It's 40 frigates for single max deployment. And if you need more than 1 wave due to CR time, well...

yes. i don't know why ship limit is even a thing. it was instituted as a replacement for a maintainability system which was removed, there's a theoretical upper limit that basically consists of you buying all the supplies in the sector anyway, so why it's a thing i have no idea. if i want to have 50 frigates why is it a problem?

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- Auto retreat on CR becomes a must (otherwise it's micromanagement nightmare). I know it is available as mod, but such changes would make it a core necessity.

i'd favor just making them stay on the field a little longer, and/or their CR doesn't degrade under certain conditions, or something. i mean, having things that are supposed to be able to do long duration patrol / picket duties / objective holding that can't do any of those things for a decent amount of time is weird to me personally.
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Megas

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 07:34:01 AM »

One way to deal with CR is to make the AI brave like the used to be before 0.8.  Of course, that means well-built battleship can probably solo the simulator.  Hard to solo simulator if enemies stall as long as they can and drain your peak performance in the process.  Peak performance for bigger ships was generally a non-issue before 0.8 unless you tried to solo the simulator or multiple endgame fleets in one extended battle.  Now, peak performance is significant for all ships because the cowardly AI will happily stall indefinitely if allowed.  (This is the real power of Remnants, unusually high peak performance for their class.)

Frigates will hover past gun range, even that from quad lance and dual HVD Paragon.  If Paragon was drained peak performance by initial clash with bigger ships, then a frigate horde deployed later will be deadly because Paragon will no longer have the peak performance to outlast all of the frigates.  Paragon will be forced to engage in the open in a desperate attempt to kill things on time, then the frigates will mob and do a ton of damage.
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Cik

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2018, 07:37:00 AM »

also i forgot to add: it would be nice that under some conditions frigates could be deployed on the sides of the battle in non-pursuit battles.
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TaLaR

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2018, 07:41:03 AM »


3) 4 Frigates, if competently piloted and not massively outclassed in character skills, will tear through any cruiser. 4 Tempests can easily display that much under AI control as is. Even common ones, like 4 SO Melee Lashers would be quite scary, if they were committed and synced well enough(but AI isn't).

tempests are a standout case. they are rare, though i guess you have me in that they are technically a conventional frigate. i disagree about the lashers though. obviously i'm unsure of what mods you are using but with a vanilla-like modset half the lashers should die before they even make it into range, and the remaining two would be a stress but probably not a big deal, especially if you have a mobility system and can use it to hold range for a longer duration where they won't be able to effectively return fire. still, they won't last more than a few battles even best case before they are all dead which is a problem. in addition they will have CR for that one engagement if that. the cruiser continues to effect the battlefield for pretty much the whole battle unless it's destroyed utterly.

Somewhat off-topic, but you really underestimate SO Melee Lashers (5x Lmg + 2x Annihilators. Possibly with slight variations like replacing one Lmg with LAG or using 1-2 Swarmers for easier targeting).

Assuming you can survive approach (like pushing a large asteroid in front of yourself as shield or get enemy distracted by allies), these can win 1v1 against any DE. 4 are way more than enough for any cruiser, assuming they attack competently (which they won't under AI control).
Can't stand-off against them either - skill-less SO+UI Lasher has 245 speed (since +50 flux bonus is always active)
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Megas

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2018, 07:56:19 AM »

Depends what weapons the ship has.  I had Graviton+HIL Sunder with no light ballistics, and the two SIM Lashers charged my Sunder, then flux locked it.  Sunder could not escape, then perished.  Later, I replayed the fight except I put two Light Autocannons on the Sunder.  Lashers hovered further away, and Graviton+HIL destroyed them.

Similarly, I put LR PD laser in some mounts for Odyssey so that enemy Hounds will hover some distance away instead of fearlessly drifting close and past PD-less Odyssey while beelining toward its engines.

What weapons an enemy ship is armed with can affect ship AI.
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Cik

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2018, 08:01:11 AM »

the easiest way would just be to play it in a simulator but

1) one will die (at least) per missile volley

2) i have S/O weapons that outrange them which they have to close through. it will be at least a short while before they can bring to bear anything that isn't missiles

3) i have armor that can deal with them, at least for a few seconds.. unless they have reapers which makes it significantly harder

the mitigating circumstances are 1: they may just be able to mass fire reapers and kill me instantly as small missile weapons are shamefully strong under some conditions

but regardless, 1vmany isn't really the concern here. many v many is the concern. specific munchbuilds of frigates being good doesn't mean frigates themselves are good, just like pre-buff thunders were good didn't mean fighters generally were good.

the opportunity cost of bringing those lashers is:

continuously replacing them, spending 4 officers instead of 1, (already a huge issue) "wasting" those DP as they move on and off the field after their CR taps out in like a minute, probably losing several of them. the AI (currently) has limitless ships so the ability to kill one (1) cruiser before they retreat is useless as i can quite easily kill cruisers with anything else while bearing none of these opportunity costs.

in many v many, SO lashers can easily be eaten up by combined long range fire / fighters / misc. missiles / just waiting for them to tap out. unless there's like 20 of them and they are all crewed by aggressive officers or something in which case then that's an issue. granted the SO lasher isn't fielded by the AI and besides being a pretty funny and relatively workable munchbuild it's not really relevant except to a community build competition.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 08:09:36 AM by Cik »
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TaLaR

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2018, 08:30:40 AM »

the easiest way would just be to play it in a simulator but
...

It entirely depends on which side you, the player, pilot.
Player-piloted SO Lasher can kill any DE 1v1, and even some more vulnerable cruisers variants.
Player-piloted DE/CR can fight off horde of SO Lashers, since AI is simply bad at using them.

I'm not saying that SO Lashers are currently viable for anything but cheap jump-start early in campaign. But theoretically 4 of them would be a guaranteed win against most cruisers, if AI was competent at using them (position while avoiding combat or even better CR tick radius, then rush from 4 sides).

... Adding custom variants to sim is not hard, I have a personal mod exactly for that.
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Thaago

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2018, 12:57:29 PM »

Imo the only problem with frigates at the moment is that objectives don't do anything 95% of the time (other than helpfully distract the AI). There is currently great utility in distracting the AI with frigates or using them to coral enemy stragglers, but they don't (and shouldn't) be able to slug it out with bigger and slower ships in a straight fight.

(Also I'm confused - what are the "very high power standoff gun" you are talking about? Massed beams fall into that category, and a graviton Eagle is really good at chasing away frigates. Thats all I can really think of outside of mods, which suffer from moderate power creep in terms of speed, range, and alpha.)
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Cik

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2018, 01:39:06 PM »

any large gun, HVD / HM, any medium missile+

frigates used to be able to deal with these by simply being small, but with gunnery implants / ITU / tech-skill based range increases being ubiquitous this has changed.

beams count too but i don't list them as i don't consider them particularly threatening as time to kill is relatively high and if they are focusing beams on the frigate it's pretty much doing it's job.

^ that may not count for HIL and other heavy energy weapons, which i don't see enough to actually get a feel for how powerful they are.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 01:47:19 PM by Cik »
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Retry

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2018, 06:05:13 PM »

3) 4 Frigates, if competently piloted and not massively outclassed in character skills, will tear through any cruiser. 4 Tempests can easily display that much under AI control as is. Even common ones, like 4 SO Melee Lashers would be quite scary, if they were committed and synced well enough(but AI isn't).
Tempests seem like a bit of an outlier because its terminator drones are super useful at stranding enemy ships. (ex: sneaking behind a Falcon's or Eagle's shield to disable its engines)  The terminator rework is going to make it more scary against fighters and less against ships.  Can we really say that 4 of any combat frigate will tear through any cruiser like a Tempest could?  Would 4 Wolves, 4 Monitors, 4 Scarabs, or 4 Centurions really easily crush any combat cruiser?  And does it even hold true when scaling up: would 20 frigates tear up 5 cruisers?

Even then, there's cruisers that exist which I'd very highly doubt would be "crushed" by a typical frigate quartet.  A good Aurora build with dual heavy blasters tears up frigates quite quickly, and it's very fast at its baseline in addition to plasma jets which can let it catch up to nearly any ship including most frigates.  With ITUs, cruisers in general handily outrange most frigate builds as well.
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TaLaR

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Re: Frigates
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2018, 07:12:14 PM »

3) 4 Frigates, if competently piloted and not massively outclassed in character skills, will tear through any cruiser. 4 Tempests can easily display that much under AI control as is. Even common ones, like 4 SO Melee Lashers would be quite scary, if they were committed and synced well enough(but AI isn't).
Tempests seem like a bit of an outlier because its terminator drones are super useful at stranding enemy ships. (ex: sneaking behind a Falcon's or Eagle's shield to disable its engines)  The terminator rework is going to make it more scary against fighters and less against ships.  Can we really say that 4 of any combat frigate will tear through any cruiser like a Tempest could?  Would 4 Wolves, 4 Monitors, 4 Scarabs, or 4 Centurions really easily crush any combat cruiser?  And does it even hold true when scaling up: would 20 frigates tear up 5 cruisers?

Even then, there's cruisers that exist which I'd very highly doubt would be "crushed" by a typical frigate quartet.  A good Aurora build with dual heavy blasters tears up frigates quite quickly, and it's very fast at its baseline in addition to plasma jets which can let it catch up to nearly any ship including most frigates.  With ITUs, cruisers in general handily outrange most frigate builds as well.

Aurora is about the only Cruiser to have really good survival chances, due to fast mobility system.
On the other hand, Dominator is killable by single frigate. Though it's sim variants are just too vulnerable, using some rear-facing railguns would make it able to handle 1 or 2  AI frigates at least.

Core issue is piloting - if these 4 frigates had player-quality piloting, than 4 of any combat frigate would have decent chances against any single cruiser (less so against Aurora, especially if it also had player-quality piloting).

And no, it does not scale up. 20 frigates would bump into each other, as there is only so much space in 2d. While cruisers will be able to defend each other effectively in back to back formation.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 07:23:29 PM by TaLaR »
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