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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Once More, with Feeling  (Read 31587 times)

Goumindong

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2018, 08:01:27 PM »

Glad you went to a more simple simulation. Usually works out better in the end

Edit: One thing to consider is a strategic structure of making things illegal. You could make trade harder with places which don't have similar illegal goods structure. So you have to consider if you want to have a free port what that will cost you in general good product sales.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 08:46:16 PM by Goumindong »
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Arkiuz

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2018, 09:16:09 PM »



To a degree - your colonies by default ban the usual set (drugs, organs) but setting a colony to "free port" makes these legal and allows for profit to be made from exports of these.

I did think about having more detailed per-commodity controls, but it seems more like a solution looking for a problem - complex and I wasn't coming up with anything particularly interesting as a result of it being an option. Especially not with the "Free Port" toggle covering much of the same ground.

"Good news, we've fixed the drug problem but now food is banned.  Seeya at work on Monday!"
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Alex

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2018, 09:34:33 PM »

Edit: One thing to consider is a strategic structure of making things illegal. You could make trade harder with places which don't have similar illegal goods structure. So you have to consider if you want to have a free port what that will cost you in general good product sales.

Hmm - one of the things this simplification does away with almost entirely is the idea of trading with a specific location; you're just putting stuff on the market. Plus, this seems like it'd be a situation with one "right" choice, being the one that gives you more money.

Free port will have other downsides, though - it does have a stability penalty (which is indeed a reduction in income, with some additional effects), along hopefully with some that are more difficult to quantify.


"Good news, we've fixed the drug problem but now food is banned.  Seeya at work on Monday!"

"The Eridani Combine's 'war on food' initiative has met with limited success so far"
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2018, 09:35:29 PM »

I may or may not be coding something directly related to what you're talking about as we speak :) The Diktat certainly seem like the type that wouldn't mind getting their hands a little dirty with some plausibly-deniable bombardments out in the black.
But I though bombardments were impossible to do stealthily. How can you  hide a galactic war crime, especially from those that got bombed?
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Embolism

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2018, 09:36:23 PM »

I may or may not be coding something directly related to what you're talking about as we speak :) The Diktat certainly seem like the type that wouldn't mind getting their hands a little dirty with some plausibly-deniable bombardments out in the black.
But I though bombardments were impossible to do stealthily. How can you  hide a galactic war crime, especially from those that got bombed?

You don't hide the crime, you hide the fact that you're behind it.

I.e. the pirates did it.
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Alex

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2018, 09:45:19 PM »

But I though bombardments were impossible to do stealthily. How can you  hide a galactic war crime, especially from those that got bombed?

Probably a combination of it not being in the core worlds and your faction being a newcomer that doesn't have the same importance in the collective consciousness of the Sector. Plus, you know, you expect this sort of thing from the Diktat, everyone knows they blew up Opis! What can you do? Gotta live with them somehow. But when some upstart like you does it, it's shocking and a war crime.

(I'm imagining the player's character saying the last line with air quotes, while complaining about the unfairness of life, at a bar somewhere, to a disinterested audience of half-drunk spacers.)
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2018, 09:54:22 PM »

But I though bombardments were impossible to do stealthily. How can you  hide a galactic war crime, especially from those that got bombed?

Probably a combination of it not being in the core worlds and your faction being a newcomer that doesn't have the same importance in the collective consciousness of the Sector. Plus, you know, you expect this sort of thing from the Diktat, everyone knows they blew up Opis! What can you do? Gotta live with them somehow. But when some upstart like you does it, it's shocking and a war crime.

(I'm imagining the player's character saying the last line with air quotes, while complaining about the unfairness of life, at a bar somewhere, to a disinterested audience of half-drunk spacers.)
Woah woah woah, hold on a minute! Are you saying that factions can attack and or bombard the player faction, all without the rep and other penalties that the player would receive?!
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Arkiuz

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2018, 10:08:40 PM »

"Good news, we've fixed the drug problem but now food is banned.  Seeya at work on Monday!"

"The Eridani Combine's 'war on food' initiative has met with limited success so far"

To be a fly on the wall of the PR office in a player run faction.
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2018, 11:13:40 PM »

Are you saying that factions can attack and or bombard the player faction, all without the rep and other penalties that the player would receive?!

Wouldn't the "AI penalty" be the fact that the player will be motivated to attack it? It's not like this is PVP in which everything needs to have the same rules.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2018, 11:26:22 PM »

Are you saying that factions can attack and or bombard the player faction, all without the rep and other penalties that the player would receive?!

Wouldn't the "AI penalty" be the fact that the player will be motivated to attack it? It's not like this is PVP in which everything needs to have the same rules.
No because then the player would PO everyone else in the sector because they retaliated against a planetary bombardment from another faction.
And yes, this SHOULD effect the AI negatively just as much the player or else this would just turn out to be another gankburn or InterDICKtion Pulse. Only this would be even worse as you could end up losing at best a ton of stability and or availability and at worse most like your best planet! And since it takes time to get planet sizes up, this could end up costing you hours on your save
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SCC

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2018, 02:21:47 AM »

Accessibility increases both imports and exports, yes? I am a bit unsure how imports work now.
Woah woah woah, hold on a minute! Are you saying that factions can attack and or bombard the player faction, all without the rep and other penalties that the player would receive?!
Balance of power. Nothing personal, kiddo.
Can we ban what we don't want from being traded?  Similar to how other factions would ban, say, drugs.

To a degree - your colonies by default ban the usual set (drugs, organs) but setting a colony to "free port" makes these legal and allows for profit to be made from exports of these.

I did think about having more detailed per-commodity controls, but it seems more like a solution looking for a problem - complex and I wasn't coming up with anything particularly interesting as a result of it being an option. Especially not with the "Free Port" toggle covering much of the same ground.
I suspect this is a consequence of all commodities being required for proper colony. If the choice to legalise drugs results in just "more money for less stability", there really isn't a point. Mods possibly could introduce optional commodities and would certainly use the option to ban them selectively, but the base game really doesn't.

namp007

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2018, 03:54:26 AM »

Well, guess I know what I'll be doing from now on...
Checking for release on a daily basis  :D
(Have been doing that anyway, since September, but still, feels like we're getting close)
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Aratoop

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2018, 05:01:34 AM »

I'm so excited for this update! I've been looking forward to this sorta thing from this game for like 7 years and here we are!! My studies are going to suffer so much when it does come out hahah. Just a quick thought - shouldn't "Global Market Value" be "Sector Market Value"?
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Megas

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2018, 05:22:18 AM »

I agree with Midnight that such asymmetry feels... wrong.  No need for another AI grief move like gank burn or pulse spam.  One more reason to go full Kohr-Ah on everyone or Kill 'Em All.

At what point does the player transition from upstart to major power?  Being new means little if player's faction manages to acquire power equal or greater than the biggest major faction.

Speaking of pulse spam, if reputation between factions will no longer be static, I like to see them inflict a bunch of -1s to their reputation with other factions they ping, or if not, at least player gets no penalty when his fleets pulse spam in systems the player controls.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 05:41:11 AM by Megas »
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Once More, with Feeling
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2018, 06:01:47 AM »

I really don't see the issue. If Diktat can do it without punishment then maybe it's because they have enough influence with other factions that they can pull it off. Maybe there are backdoor deals to stop new competitors from popping up. Maybe they are threatening others with military action. Maybe losing the access to the premier fuel source of the sector would be too much of a collateral. Etc, etc,

I think ideally some factions should always be annoyed, triggering sector wars, but other than that there is really no reason to hold the AI factions to the same standards as the player's, this isn't Stellaris. In fact, they don't even expand. The reason I think this is preferable is because you can make factions more unique if they can do things that the player can't do (at least not easily), and you'd have to consider the different points of each. "Oh, gotta be careful about competing with this faction, can't simply just make some fuel and get a quick buck without some severe consequences."
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 06:06:10 AM by Cyan Leader »
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